Trans issues

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Deebank
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Trans issues

Postby Deebank » 25 Nov 2019, 12:29

My daughter has a friend at school who is now called Simon. He was born a girl... Is that the PC way to say that? I don't know and that's part of the problem. Anyway, the kids had a trip to Belgium as part of their history course and (after, I expect quite a lot of thought about the issue) Simon was allocated a bed in with my daughter and her (female) friends. I can totally understand this decision. The thought of a trans kid in with a lot of pubescent lads is more than a little worrying. ALthough I'm not sure what would have happened had there been a trans girl.

My daughter and her pals seem to be a lot more tolerant and accepting than my generation would have been. There's no fuss, they are very matter of fact about it all.

I think Betty Denim brought this subject up a while ago and I was probably quite dismissive about the idea that a man would go through the whole trans thing just so s/he could hang out in the ladies lavs. However, there have been a (very small) number of incidents with men identifying (they only have to say that's how they identify I think) as women to apparently gain access to otherwise women-only spaces.

Then you have the whole issue of womens' sports... And the whole area of sexual attarction and what it means - lesbian women getting all sorts of flack for saying they couldn't sleep with a trans woman who still has full male tackle!

It's a minefield and anyone sticking their head above the parapet gets it shot at - to mix a metaphor. Graham Linehan (of Father Ted fame) has become a pariah in certain parts of the Twittersphere for supporting womens' rights.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Fonz » 25 Nov 2019, 13:08

I think all I can do is try and keep an open mind about these things.

There seems to be a faddy element to some of it, and there are plenty of cases of folks rushing into treatments and surgery, with later regret...but if things (puberty, development etc) are left too long then the trans process may be more complicated.


As an aside, the only thing I do resent is the appropriation of ‘they’ as a personal pronoun. As something that trans individuals really do have a choice about, it seems perverse to use a word with established and accepted meanings, when a suitable neologism could have made everyone’s life easier.
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The Prof
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Re: Trans issues

Postby The Prof » 25 Nov 2019, 13:40

Deebank wrote: the kids had a trip to Belgium


I was thinking of some dreadful gag where the punchline was Trans-Europe Express, then I thought better of it. :roll:

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KeithPratt
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Re: Trans issues

Postby KeithPratt » 25 Nov 2019, 13:55

It's a fucking minefield.

We are starting to see a few people coming forward in the media who have gone through the whole process and are as unhappy as they were before they transitioned, thinking that it would "solve" the issue.

It seems very difficult to talk about the subject without being labelled "insensitive" to people's experiences.

Personally, given that we really don't know a great deal about the mental and philosophical ramifications of what is such a huge thing concerning identity, I think that it should illegal to offer gender reassignment surgery to under 18s until society as a whole has begun to understood it further.

I totally get why parents assent to it - they want to see their child happy. But we just don't know enough about it to really say with any certainty that once a child has undergone it, that further down the line they are happy.

Deep down when someone says that they feel like the opposite sex, how the hell do they know? They might identify with the trappings and feelings of the opposite sex, but to 'feel' it? It's a massive philosophical conundrum.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby GoogaMooga » 25 Nov 2019, 14:29

I'm okay with most of it, but willfully having one's dick cut off, I think a lot of them regret it later. It's a very drastic step. Wouldn't it pretty much destroy the sex life? I must admit, I am completely ignorant about this surgery business.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Sneelock » 25 Nov 2019, 19:00

well, it's so much more sophisticated now than it was even ten years ago.

I'm in my 60's so I understand how hard it is to get used to. I have people I used to call "sweetie" that now have stubble and a look in their eye that says "I hope he doesn't call me 'sweetie'"
most of the people I hang around with are Boomers so I see the problems. it's hard to get used to a world where kids are asking to transition instead of asking for ten-speed bikes. it's hard but I'm hoping it can be done.
suicides and post/op recidivism are way down, demand is way up.it's hard for me and my friends not to suspect that some of the teens & young adults asking to transition are asking for the same reason they ask for piercings or tattoos. well, eventually you just need to go with your breadbasket with those things.

I've no doubt in my mind that some people I grew up with would have wanted this had it been an option.

I've had trans customers and co-workers and I'll be honest that I had to make a mental adjustment. sometimes it was easy and sometimes it wasn't. it was easier with the people I liked than with the people I didn't like. I'm not saying it's EASY with people you love just that it's hopefully a reason for bearing with it and seeing where it takes us.
I can't see into the future. frankly, given the political climate I'm amazed it's still happening with the frequency it is. we are at a crossroads. should people be able to pick their gender?
my gut feeling is yes. I feel that way because of the people I've known who got the shit kicked out of them over and over because they insisted it was who they were. they didn't have the options we have now but they walked the walk. why did they do that? because they thought it was who they were. I respect that. I'm not sure I respect every young person I know who is talking about transitioning. I guess I'll find out if I do. sometimes you just have to take people at their word.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Flower » 25 Nov 2019, 20:20

The entire issue is a slippery slope. Life is or can be hurtful for people who are just "like everyone else". Mix in color, race and religion and the party begins before sexual orientation enters the room.

I don't believe that anyone under the age of 18 should or maybe not be capable of making such a life changing choice but I could be wrong.

We all want to be treated with respect and consideration, especially on a casual level. A person who is trans or gay should be acknowledged such as any other student, co-worker, neighbor, etc. with polite greetings and common courtesy.

I would hope that the students who like Simon would be friendly, invite him to join them for lunch or whatever. I would also hope that the students who didn't like him, would still be polite but just not opt to hang around with him, the same as with any other student or co-worker that they don't like or understand.

I wish this kid the best of luck and a happy life.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Matt Wilson » 25 Nov 2019, 21:06

It doesn't bother me. One should be whatever one wants. If you're willing to go through the whole process of surgery and issues of a new identity, then you're welcome to it. I hope they're happy with their new life. If not, then it's too late to go back, right? It's not my concern, so I'm certainly not going to be against it. Live and let live, and all that.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby Hightea » 25 Nov 2019, 21:27

Doesn't bother me although agree the decision should be made after 18.
That being said my sis-in-law has a trans relative. She had the operation in her 20's and now is 35-40 and has a partner for the past 10 years. They are successful and happy. Which is all I really care about.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby KeithPratt » 25 Nov 2019, 21:33

I guess with all liberal ideas, it's a matter of "it's fine to do whatever one wants" until a line has been crossed. No-one stops to think about the ramifications because they don't perceive there to be issues.

Now we are finding that with trans people in sport, there very much is an issue. Men who 'self-identify' as women are allowed to participate in women's sport and essentially make a mockery of it. I'm not suggesting that all of women's sport will be affected by it, but it is a strong example of how liberal ideas of self-expression and identity often cause problems that are usually unforseen. People who say "hang on a minute" or "perhaps we should think a bit more about this before letting it happen" are shouted down because they are seen as "transphobic" or whatever.

We all want that urge of "people should be allowed to be who they want to be" as it seems to be such an essential Western aphorism - but often there are essential biological differences and ramifications that actually prevent that from happening in the manner that people want. I think personally that there are enormous issues with the fluidity of gender and identity - what does it mean in terms of the impact on women in particular. The fact that the prefix "cis" seems to be gaining some sort of traction as the heteronormative rather than just "woman" has massive connotations.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby GoogaMooga » 25 Nov 2019, 21:50

What does "cis" mean? Never came across it.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby St Jeemo the Humourless » 25 Nov 2019, 22:03

"Men who 'self-identify' as women are allowed to participate in women's sport and essentially make a mockery of it."

In which Women's sport is this happening?
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Re: Trans issues

Postby KeithPratt » 25 Nov 2019, 22:13

St Jeemo the Humourless wrote:"Men who 'self-identify' as women are allowed to participate in women's sport and essentially make a mockery of it."

In which Women's sport is this happening?


A recent story about Maxine Blythin, who plays women's cricket for Kent.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news ... es-215668/

The captain came out and defended her, but at the same time there were mutterings from other players who felt that they had been displaced by her as well.

It's a tricky subject. Men are physically stronger, faster and more powerful than women. The athletics records bear this out and it's plainly obvious that this is true. So should men who identify as women be allowed to participate in sports where they have this sort of advantage? How would you feel if someone who was inherently stronger and more powerful came into your sporting arena and started competing because they decided they were a woman? I fully realise that the decision to transition isn't a decision taken lightly, but this aspect is just a small part of the dialogue on the subject.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby St Jeemo the Humourless » 25 Nov 2019, 22:30

KeithPratt wrote:
St Jeemo the Humourless wrote:"Men who 'self-identify' as women are allowed to participate in women's sport and essentially make a mockery of it."

In which Women's sport is this happening?


A recent story about Maxine Blythin, who plays women's cricket for Kent.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news ... es-215668/

The captain came out and defended her, but at the same time there were mutterings from other players who felt that they had been displaced by her as well.

It's a tricky subject. Men are physically stronger, faster and more powerful than women. The athletics records bear this out and it's plainly obvious that this is true. So should men who identify as women be allowed to participate in sports where they have this sort of advantage? How would you feel if someone who was inherently stronger and more powerful came into your sporting arena and started competing because they decided they were a woman? I fully realise that the decision to transition isn't a decision taken lightly, but this aspect is just a small part of the dialogue on the subject.


Thanks Toby, article suggests that Maxine has had surgery as a comment says "woman who was once a powerful man". Rather than someone who self identifies as female. Not sure about how I feel about this but you are correct that it is a small part of a much bigger issue.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Sneelock » 26 Nov 2019, 00:03

that's a tricky issue but I think it's a minor one in the grand scheme of things.
it's like getting rid of food stamps because some people are supposedly living the high life while using them.
there will always be people to game the system. we need to decide, as a culture, if we think those things are worth it in the long run.
we can figure something out if we think the benefits outweigh the negatives.
maybe we can give 'em a golf handicap sort of thing? :lol:
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Minnie the Minx » 26 Nov 2019, 01:11

I suspect that out of all the people who undergo these life changing, mentally and physically exhausting experiences, the ones who do so to get the occasional gold for the 400m hurdle is probably quite small to negligible.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Minnie the Minx » 26 Nov 2019, 03:26

If I wasn’t typing on my phone I’d have the energy to write a bit more - I can’t find the last thread where this was discussed which was pretty interesting if I remember rightly.

I think I feel this way:

I don’t care what people want to do in order to feel comfortable and live full lives. Good for them.

I also understand why people feel they are eggshell walking around the topic. There is some extraordinary resistance to genuine questions and debate around this issue which seems to stem from a belief that a magic wand can reset everyone’s brain to not be interested in discussing this as it evolves. We’re human, of course these issues are going to be discussed. That’s how everyone learns about shit.

I don’t necessarily feel the anger of some women of having bathroom spaces change but I can absolutely understand it. I wonder what I would feel if this issue had exploded when I was in my late teens and had a foot in many angry camps.

But mainly - the biggest thing I feel is my first point.
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Re: Trans issues

Postby Six String » 26 Nov 2019, 05:33

I've known a transgender woman since the late 80s and she's almost 70 now. I can't imagine what it's like to feel like you are born the wrong sex and wish everyone to be happy and healthy, whatever it takes. Everyone deserves to feel comfortable in their own skin.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby Darkness_Fish » 26 Nov 2019, 11:05

Minnie the Minx wrote:I suspect that out of all the people who undergo these life changing, mentally and physically exhausting experiences, the ones who do so to get the occasional gold for the 400m hurdle is probably quite small to negligible.

That's fine to say from the perspective of someone who isn't competing in elite female sport (for the avoidance of doubt, I'd like to make it clear that I don't either, and don't intend to), but to dismiss the issue as negligble seems wrong to me. Biological males are winning titles in female sporting competitions, and that would appear to be a nonsense to me, whether that's the reason they self-identify as female or not.

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Re: Trans issues

Postby Fonz » 26 Nov 2019, 11:25

Darkness_Fish wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:I suspect that out of all the people who undergo these life changing, mentally and physically exhausting experiences, the ones who do so to get the occasional gold for the 400m hurdle is probably quite small to negligible.

That's fine to say from the perspective of someone who isn't competing in elite female sport (for the avoidance of doubt, I'd like to make it clear that I don't either, and don't intend to), but to dismiss the issue as negligble seems wrong to me. Biological males are winning titles in female sporting competitions, and that would appear to be a nonsense to me, whether that's the reason they self-identify as female or not.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/late ... tle-397473


Trans women goalkeepers have definite advantage.

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