Ukraine-gate

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Whose behavior is worse? Biden vs Trump

Biden
1
10%
Trump
9
90%
Footy
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

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Flower
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Flower » 02 Oct 2019, 00:33

All this talk of the Ukraine makes me crave blintzes.
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Snarfyguy
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Snarfyguy » 02 Oct 2019, 05:17

Lindsey Graham, defending Trump on Face the Nation, when presented with matters of undisputable fact re the Ukraine scandal: "You’ve got an opinion, I’ve got an opinion.”

LINDSEY GRAHAM: The whistleblower complaint is just hearsay.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the whistleblower complaint is [corroboratd] in numerous ways.

GRAHAM: Well, you’ve got an opinion, I've got an opinion.

If we're going to be like that about it, what's even the point of discussing it? The Biden stuff has been thoroughly debunked by numerous credible sources. If that doesn't "mean anything," the what's the point of going any further?

Obvs, Trump's stand-ins' strategy is just to throw as much mud as possible and see if anything sticks, to gin up outrage regardless of the facts.

If that's what you want to get on board with, Jimbo, be my guest, but you're not arguing in good faith, so don't expect recpirocality.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Jimbo » 02 Oct 2019, 06:48

Snarfyguy wrote: If that's what you want to get on board with, Jimbo, be my guest, but you're not arguing in good faith, so don't expect recpirocality.


If you think I am siding with a snake like Lindsey Graham that is an insult, sir, and I would challenge you to duel if this were Barry Lydon. I am arguing from the left, the anti-war left, the anti-Wall Street left, the open the records Wikileaks left. Your team overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine and then dug in like it was a buffet and helped themselves to the spoils of the disaster that they created. THAT is your team. Take your reciprocity and shove it.
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Count Machuki
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Count Machuki » 02 Oct 2019, 14:26

Jimbo wrote: the anti-war left


Isn't there pretty much a war going on in Crimea right now?
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby toomanyhatz » 02 Oct 2019, 19:16

So enlighten us, Jimbo. What precisely did Biden do that was illegal? Actually illegal, not "bad optics" or something unrelated that you disapprove of.
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:Trump is right. The collusion conspiracy theory has been debunked and you seem to refuse to look at the evidence.

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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Jimbo » 02 Oct 2019, 23:08

First, there is no war going on in Crimea. There is some fighting going on in the Donbass region of Ukraine, a pro-Russia area which would join Russia if it were allowed but, sadly, the Ukraine government, with Uncle Sam's help, will kill you if you try. In fact the money which Trump supposedly threatened to withhold was for arms to fight these insurrectionists. These are arms which, wisely, Obama wouldn't give and now Democrats are angry because Trump won't give either.

As for whether Joe Biden did anything actually illegal we won't know for sure because he blackmailed the Ukraine government to fire its prosecutor general while he was in the midst of investigating Burisma. The most damning article I could find was from April 1, 2019, before this current blow up and it concentrates on Biden, his son and the Ukrainian prosecutor general version of musical chairs. By article end Joe Biden is still innocent but the author, John Solomon, suggests these questions be asked of the candidate.

....some hard questions should be answered by Biden as he prepares, potentially, to run for president in 2020: Was it appropriate for your son and his firm to cash in on Ukraine while you served as point man for Ukraine policy? What work was performed for the money Hunter Biden’s firm received? Did you know about the Burisma probe? And when it was publicly announced that your son worked for Burisma, should you have recused yourself from leveraging a U.S. policy to pressure the prosecutor who very publicly pursued Burisma?


https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... is-revived
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby toomanyhatz » 03 Oct 2019, 00:42

Jimbo wrote:
The most damning article I could find was from April 1, 2019, before this current blow up and it concentrates on Biden, his son and the Ukrainian prosecutor general version of musical chairs. By article end Joe Biden is still innocent but the author, John Solomon, suggests these questions be asked of the candidate.

....some hard questions should be answered by Biden as he prepares, potentially, to run for president in 2020: Was it appropriate for your son and his firm to cash in on Ukraine while you served as point man for Ukraine policy? What work was performed for the money Hunter Biden’s firm received? Did you know about the Burisma probe? And when it was publicly announced that your son worked for Burisma, should you have recused yourself from leveraging a U.S. policy to pressure the prosecutor who very publicly pursued Burisma?


https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... is-revived


All valid questions! Ones being asked constantly by people being called Hillary-bots. But then you let this drop as if it's known fact:

As for whether Joe Biden did anything actually illegal we won't know for sure because he blackmailed the Ukraine government to fire its prosecutor general while he was in the midst of investigating Burisma.


And basically this is what I'm finding hard to swallow. Because there is no evidence whatsoever found by anyone that the firing had anything whatsoever to do with Hunter. And that's why Trump's innocent act doesn't wash. Not a fan of Biden, and not defending him in any way. Just saying the moral relativity here is pretty much non-existent. And that is the problem.
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:Trump is right. The collusion conspiracy theory has been debunked and you seem to refuse to look at the evidence.

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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Sneelock » 03 Oct 2019, 01:18

Shokin was no white knight - he was a total sleaze ball!
here is well known Hillary-bot USA Today:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 832174002/
Last edited by Sneelock on 03 Oct 2019, 01:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Sneelock » 03 Oct 2019, 01:23

did you see President TRUMP with the President of Finland?
(if you answer "yes" please continue)
did it make you conclude that the President of the United States is a rabid chihuahua dog of a man?
(if you answer "no" please put the cone hat on your head and sit in the corner for the next YEAR)
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2019, 02:27

toomanyhatz wrote: Because there is no evidence found by anyone that the firing had anything whatsoever to do with Hunter.


That is cutting it so keenly even Occam couldn't slice it. I don't know what I just wrote means but if the prosecutor (according to the Solomon article) was in the midst of investigating Burisma for corruption it doesn't take too much speculation power to assume that sooner or later he'd get around to asking why and how they had hired and richly paid the US Vice-President's son Hunter. But we'll never know because Joe made sure the guy was fired by blackmailing the Ukraine government.

If an issue this flimsy is what the Dems are using to impeach Trump they're nuts. It won't do.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Sneelock » 03 Oct 2019, 05:51

Jimbo wrote:I don't know what I just wrote means



Don’t feel like the Lone Ranger!
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Snarfyguy » 04 Oct 2019, 03:06

[Biden] blackmailed the Ukraine government to fire its prosecutor general while he was in the midst of investigating Burisma.


It appears to be the consensus view that at the time prosecutor Shokin was removed, he was NOT investigating Burisma.

[B]y 2016, officials throughout the Obama administration and in Western Europe had come to a consensus that Ukraine’s prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin, wasn’t doing enough to crack down on corruption. Biden, as he later colorfully recounted, delivered the message that the West wanted Shokin gone or else loan guarantees would be held up, and Shokin was, in turn, fired.

There was nothing remotely controversial about this at the time. No congressional Republicans complained about it, and the European Union hailed the decision to fire Shokin. The reason there is video footage of Biden touting his personal role in this is it was considered a foreign policy triumph that Biden wanted to claim credit for, not anything sordid or embarrassing.

But Shokin, of course, didn’t want to go down on the theory that he was corrupt or incompetent. So he started offering another theory — he was fired for going after Burisma by Joe Biden corrupting operating on behalf of Hunter Biden.

The question of whether Shokin was actually investigating Burisma at all is a matter of dispute (the relevant Ukrainian players have told inconsistent stories), but this is clearly not the reason he was fired. The desire to push him out was fully bipartisan in the United States and reflected a consensus across European governments, rather than anything idiosyncratic to Biden.

The notion that firing Shokin was somehow problematic was not in the air until the New York Times ran a story co-bylined by Ken Vogel and a Ukrainian journalist named Iuliia Mendel (who a few weeks later would become Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s official spokesperson) highlighting Rudy Giuliani’s efforts at muckraking.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ine-shokin

But the notion that Biden (and don't call me a Biden-bot; I'm not a supporter) is somehow complicit in a conspiracy here, but that we can't quite know how because we need Ukraine (and China?) to investigate, doesn't make any sense. Sure, Hunter was trading off his father's name, but that's just your run-of-the-mill nepotism (see Trump's kids for examples); there haven't been any actual allegations of criminal conduct.

The problem for Trump is that, even if Hunter Biden has blood on his hands, asking a foreign entity to smear your political rivals is just plain illegal. There are proper channels for investigating that: the DOJ pursues FCPA charges.

In short, the underlying conduct Trump is alleging is immaterial to the reason impeachment charges are underway.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Jimbo » 04 Oct 2019, 10:02

Snarfyguy wrote: asking a foreign entity to smear your political rivals is just plain illegal. There are proper channels for investigating that: the DOJ pursues FCPA charges.


Smear? Trump seems only to have asked the Ukrainian PM to look into Biden's involvement. After all, the Biden video saying he had the prosecutor fired is damning on its face. That is until stolid Dems like you come in and back fill us with appropriate exculpatory facts. Any smearing would come later.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Snarfyguy » 04 Oct 2019, 16:26

Jimbo wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote: asking a foreign entity to smear your political rivals is just plain illegal. There are proper channels for investigating that: the DOJ pursues FCPA charges.


Smear? Trump seems only to have asked the Ukrainian PM to look into Biden's involvement. After all, the Biden video saying he had the prosecutor fired is damning on its face. That is until stolid Dems like you come in and back fill us with appropriate exculpatory facts. Any smearing would come later.

Doesn't matter. Simply opening an investigation is itself a smear. Suddenly the Bidens are in a defensive position going into the election.

If you can find an impartial account of Shokin's termination, I don't think you'll find it "damning" that Biden wanted him out. Everyone else did too.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Mike Boom » 04 Oct 2019, 17:30

Jimbo wrote:Trump seems only to have asked the Ukrainian PM to look into Biden's involvement


Its funny how you leave out the pertinent issue - he withheld military aid to a country desperate to protect itself from the Russians unless this "favor" was done. Thats extortion and putting your own interests above the interests of the country you are supposedly President of.

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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Sneelock » 04 Oct 2019, 17:36

I'm sure the restrained and dignified way TRUMP has been comporting himself lately reflects how proper all his actions & behaviors have been.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Count Machuki » 04 Oct 2019, 17:44

Sneelock wrote:I'm sure the restrained and dignified way TRUMP has been comporting himself lately reflects how proper all his actions & behaviors have been.


Three-dimensional chess, man. What better way to OWN THE LIBS than by acting shady and guilty AF?
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Jimbo » 04 Oct 2019, 18:18

Image

Ignore the hype — this is not an impeachment inquiry
By Andrew C. McCarthy

...Democrats are mulishly determined to ram through an article of impeachment or two, regardless of whether the State Department and other agencies cooperate in the farce. Their base wants the scarlet-letter “I” attached to Trump. The party hopes to rally the troops for the 2020 campaign against Trump (although smarter Democrats know it could boomerang on them).
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... nt-inquiry

If Trump is the bully the Democrats are the nerds. And they fight like nerds with their eyes closed while swatting at air and flailing about making a freak dumb show of their party. Meanwhile bully Trump as guilty as hell of dozens of offenses sits in the Oval Office and laughs. I asked this question a while ago at a party and the question was: If Trump is Biff (from Back to the Future) who is our Marty McFly? Who will save the day? Impeachment will never happen, let alone Trump's removal from office and so we have to hope the election will see him gone. Who is our Marty McFly?
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Flower » 04 Oct 2019, 19:29

What's wrong with nerds? I'll sit back, eat my popcorn and cheer them on.
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Re: Ukraine-gate

Postby Jimbo » 05 Oct 2019, 21:48

.
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