The next UK Prime minister

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
Positive Passion
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Positive Passion » 07 Sep 2019, 21:05

Diamond Dog wrote:
Powehi wrote:The idea that a featherweight like Corbyn who had never held so much as a shadow cabinet post before becoming Labour leader in 2015 is somehow going to best the hardened political heavyweights who head up the EU is laughable. He can't even control his own party as John McDonnell's recent remarks about "putting him in a taxi to Buck House" testify.

Of course before Jezza can "deal with Brexit", he first has to get elected. Given that the country now seems to be divided more on Leave/Remain than traditional Labour/Tory lines, there is an awful lot of anger against the two main parties out there. In the current climate, it is hard to see any party with no coherent Brexit policy -never mind one led by Jeremy Corbyn - getting a working majority.

Jezza's ingrained Euroscepticism certainly isn't going to win him any brownie points with Remain voters on either side of the increasingly outmoded Lab/Tory divide. Heaving done virtually fuck all to campaign for Remain in 2016, he has sat wringing his hands impotently every time he has been called on to provide any kind of decisive leadership re Brexit or any other issue ever since.

To see what an undisciplined shambles Labour has descended into under his stewardship, suggest you check out Wednesday night's Andrew Neil show and Thursday night's Question Time, both of which should still be on iPlayer.

The former had the absurd spectacle of a Labour shadow cabinet member detailing a course of action re delaying any election totally at odds with the one outlined by his deputy leader, Keir Starmer, just a few hours earlier. When pushed about what Labour's policy vis a vis Brexit might be should they actually assume power, he took a leaf out of Corbyn's book and started dithering about how the need for such a decision was still a long way off.

On Thursday, Emily Thornberry made herself look even more stupid when she was forced to admit that a future Labour government might very well end up campaigning against whatever deal it had managed to negotiate with the EU.

If you think this sort of stuff is going to cut any ice with either voters or the EU, you really should stay out of that dark rolm, Prof.

Having voted Labour at every election since February 1974, I'm one of the many former supporters who won't be backing the party until John McDonnell puts Corbyn in a cab and tells him to fuck off back to his allotment.


I'd say that's a major upgrade on the catastrophic fuck up the Tories have inflicted on this country the past three weeks, let alone the past three years (and further).

However - if not Corbyn - Who do you see leading this country out of the Brexit morass the Tories have got us into?


But there is no option, I think, with the fixed term parliament rule. If Johnson resigns, we get another Tory pm, but the lamest of lame ducks. If the government resigns, then the leader of the next largest party after the Tories gets to go to the Queen. Of course she can insist on an election, but is not likely to.

Then Corbyn has to 1 ask for an extension which the EU will probably agree to - after all they do not want the UK to leave; 2 hold a second referendum; and then 3, whatever the result, hold a general election.
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Positive Passion
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Positive Passion » 07 Sep 2019, 21:09

Deebank wrote:
Positive Passion wrote:
The Prof wrote:Corbyn then has to deal with Brexit. Even though everything seems to be falling in his favour now, I'm not sure it wouldn't break him too.


Sort of. The correct answer to this, of course would be for Corbyn to call a second referendum. From his point of view it would be win/win, in that another leave victory would fulfill his lifelong dream, and a remain victory solves all the problems.



The Labour policy is to negotiate a deal and then put it to a second referendum - with remain on the ballot.

Some people think it's crazy that many Labour MPs will be campaigning against the deal they have negotiated and for remaining - I don't see that as a problem personally.


After Cameron abjectly failed to take the view that 52/48 in an advisory referendum is not a big enough majority in a transitory electorate to change the status quo, a second referendum is really the only way forward, and always has been.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby The Prof » 07 Sep 2019, 22:06

Amber Rudd's gone.

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St Jeemo the Humourless
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby St Jeemo the Humourless » 07 Sep 2019, 22:14

but Corbyn.....etc etc
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Lord Rother
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Lord Rother » 07 Sep 2019, 22:44

Christ, what a mess.

Someone dig up Maggie.

Powehi
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 12:46

Positive Passion wrote:
After Cameron abjectly failed to take the view that 52/48 in an advisory referendum is not a big enough majority in a transitory electorate to change the status quo, a second referendum is really the only way forward, and always has been.



Adding insult to the injury caused by his wrecklessness in not bothering to carry out any kind of due diligence re issues such as the Good Friday Agreement and stupidity in not mandating for a clear 55:45 majority, Dopey Dave made a point of guaranteeing that the result of the referendum would be binding. He then published his pledge to honour the result of the vote in a leaflet his government sent out to something like 9,000,000 households across the British isles.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 12:49

Deebank wrote:
Powehi wrote:
On Thursday, Emily Thornberry made herself look even more stupid when she was forced to admit that a future Labour government might very well end up campaigning against whatever deal it had managed to negotiate with the EU.



Well, JC doesn't really have to negotiate a new deal because the EU have already OKed the Labour version some months (years even) ago



Really?

Despite finding your claim that the EU would enter into negotiations with an opposition party a tad dubious, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and checked the Labour website. Nowhere is there any mention of such negotiations ever having taken plaece.

Rather than hiding behind weasel words like “months….(years even)…”, perhaps you could tell us exactly when these discussions were held.

More importantly still, given Corbyn’s continual dithering re Brexit, perhaps you might share with us the details of what exactly was agreed and by who.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 12:52

Deebank wrote:
The Labour policy is to negotiate a deal and then put it to a second referendum - with remain on the ballot.



Oh dear, just three minutes after you state that Labour has already successfully finalized negotiations with the EU, here you are again to tell us they haven’t actually negotiated a deal at all. No wonder I couldn't find any mention of the discussions on the Labour website.


Deebank wrote:
Some people think it's crazy that many Labour MPs will be campaigning against the deal they have negotiated and for remaining - I don't see that as a problem personally.



No, given your habitual refusal to face unpleasant realities when it comes to Corbyn, I don’t suppose you would.

Not sure why it is you’ve started rather childishly redacting my name when quoting my posts. If you feel I’ve done something on here to piss you off, please PM me the details and, if guilty, I’ll refrain from similar behaviour in future.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Deebank » 08 Sep 2019, 13:58

Powehi wrote:
Deebank wrote:
The Labour policy is to negotiate a deal and then put it to a second referendum - with remain on the ballot.



Oh dear, just three minutes after you state that Labour has already successfully finalized negotiations with the EU, here you are again to tell us they haven’t actually negotiated a deal at all. No wonder I couldn't find any mention of the discussions on the Labour website.


Deebank wrote:
Some people think it's crazy that many Labour MPs will be campaigning against the deal they have negotiated and for remaining - I don't see that as a problem personally.



No, given your habitual refusal to face unpleasant realities when it comes to Corbyn, I don’t suppose you would.

Not sure why it is you’ve started rather childishly redacting my name when quoting my posts. If you feel I’ve done something on here to piss you off, please PM me the details and, if guilty, I’ll refrain from similar behaviour in future.


Not sure what your problem is really. You like to take umbrage where none is offered don’t you :lol:

Labour had informal talks with the EU - I don’t think this is a controversial statement - their plan is to remain in the customs union and single market - again undisputed - thus ensuring no issues with the backstop and free movement. This would be more to the EU’s liking than May’s deal one can assume.
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Diamond Dog
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Sep 2019, 15:07

Deebank wrote:Labour had informal talks with the EU - I don’t think this is a controversial statement - their plan is to remain in the customs union and single market - again undisputed - thus ensuring no issues with the backstop and free movement. This would be more to the EU’s liking than May’s deal one can assume.



To be honest - I actually think that particular version of a deal has no chance of being agreed by either Parliament or, were it put to a referendum, by the public. I may be wrong, but that looks like wanting your cake and eating it and, more to the point, why leave the EU at all?

I'm afraid to say I think a deal to leave - in a way that will be acceptable to any Parliament on get through a referendum convincingly- simply doesn't exist.

I actually believe there are only two options now - leave with no deal or stay put. Put that to a referendum and go with whatever the majority vote for.
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 16:51

Deebank wrote:
Not sure what your problem is really. You like to take umbrage where none is offered don’t you :lol:



The "problem" is you have a habit of making overinflated claims which when questioned about, you immediately start dialling back on.

Had you said the meetings were informal in your initial post (you know the one you conveniently omitted from your reply!), I'd have broken the habit of a lifetime and kept my big fat mouth shut. But, no, you tried to make out that Corbyn "didn't have to negotiate a new deal because the EU have already OKed the Labour version some months (years even) ago." Hardly the same thing.

Please feel free to take me to task if you catch me playing similarly fast and loose with the facts.
Last edited by Powehi on 08 Sep 2019, 17:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 17:17

There are two massive points that the pols responsible for this whole clusterfuck don't seem to want to draw people's attention to.

The first is the fact that far from being the UK's call, getting another extension will require the agreement of all 27 leaders of the EU's other member states. The noises coming from Macron today indicate such a stay of execution is far from being a foregone conclusion. Even suppposing Marcron et al do take pity on us and keep us in the EU to the end of Jan 2020, how likely is it Parliament can resolve an issue that has had them hopelessly deadlocked for three and a half years in little under three months?

The second is the aftermath of Brexit. While there will be shortages and hardship, life will (hopefully) go on pretty much as normal and these problems will eventually go away. What won't disappear any time soon are the years of negotiations
that will be needed for GB to broker new trade deals from a position where its cap is permanently in its hand and its back is permanently up against the wall.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 17:24

Diamond Dog wrote:
Deebank wrote:Labour had informal talks with the EU - I don’t think this is a controversial statement - their plan is to remain in the customs union and single market - again undisputed - thus ensuring no issues with the backstop and free movement. This would be more to the EU’s liking than May’s deal one can assume.



To be honest - I actually think that particular version of a deal has no chance of being agreed by either Parliament or, were it put to a referendum, by the public. I may be wrong, but that looks like wanting your cake and eating it and, more to the point, why leave the EU at all?

I'm afraid to say I think a deal to leave - in a way that will be acceptable to any Parliament on get through a referendum convincingly- simply doesn't exist.

I actually believe there are only two options now - leave with no deal or stay put. Put that to a referendum and go with whatever the majority vote for.


Do you really think a second referendum will resolve this issue, DD? I think a second Remain/Leave vote will simply further inflame the horrible divisions that Cameron opened up when he stupidly called and guaranteed to honour the results of the initial referendum.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 08 Sep 2019, 17:28

And now EU chief Guy Verhofstadt has said a further extension is "unacceptable".

It is beginning to look like GB is fucked.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Deebank » 08 Sep 2019, 17:30

Diamond Dog wrote:
Deebank wrote:Labour had informal talks with the EU - I don’t think this is a controversial statement - their plan is to remain in the customs union and single market - again undisputed - thus ensuring no issues with the backstop and free movement. This would be more to the EU’s liking than May’s deal one can assume.



To be honest - I actually think that particular version of a deal has no chance of being agreed by either Parliament or, were it put to a referendum, by the public. I may be wrong, but that looks like wanting your cake and eating it and, more to the point, why leave the EU at all?

I'm afraid to say I think a deal to leave - in a way that will be acceptable to any Parliament on get through a referendum convincingly- simply doesn't exist.

I actually believe there are only two options now - leave with no deal or stay put. Put that to a referendum and go with whatever the majority vote for.


For what it’s worth I think you’re right. We have gone way beyond that stage but I think Labour have to offer some sort of deal just like Johnson has to pretend he’s trying to get a deal.
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Sep 2019, 18:45

Powehi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Deebank wrote:Labour had informal talks with the EU - I don’t think this is a controversial statement - their plan is to remain in the customs union and single market - again undisputed - thus ensuring no issues with the backstop and free movement. This would be more to the EU’s liking than May’s deal one can assume.



To be honest - I actually think that particular version of a deal has no chance of being agreed by either Parliament or, were it put to a referendum, by the public. I may be wrong, but that looks like wanting your cake and eating it and, more to the point, why leave the EU at all?

I'm afraid to say I think a deal to leave - in a way that will be acceptable to any Parliament on get through a referendum convincingly- simply doesn't exist.

I actually believe there are only two options now - leave with no deal or stay put. Put that to a referendum and go with whatever the majority vote for.


Do you really think a second referendum will resolve this issue, DD? I think a second Remain/Leave vote will simply further inflame the horrible divisions that Cameron opened up when he stupidly called and guaranteed to honour the results of the initial referendum.


It couldn't make it any worse than it is now.

The one thing I think I can say is that if those two options were voted on, which ever came out top...I actually think the public (and Parliament) would accept it. If nothing else, that is better than the current situation.
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby LMG » 08 Sep 2019, 23:49

Image
And now for an update on today's Shitty Brexit News...

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Powehi » 09 Sep 2019, 16:15

And now it's bye bye, Bercow.

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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Sep 2019, 18:36

Just seen a guy called Jason Stein say that the Govt itself has run polls regarding voting intentions in the UK the past six weeks - and all of them say the very best the Tories can hope for is 295-300 seats.... at least 26 seats short of a majority.
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Re: The next UK Prime minister

Postby WG Kaspar » 09 Sep 2019, 19:48

So many options, so much fun.
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