George H.W. Bush has passed away

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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LeBaron
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby LeBaron » 03 Dec 2018, 17:18

Yeah what snee said.
It’s a very mixed bag.
But, to his credit, more mixed than the Gipper or W.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby bobzilla77 » 03 Dec 2018, 17:58

I think of his as Reagan's third term. A somewhat mixed bag, as was Reagan's to be honest, but the overriding feeling I have toward it is still pretty ugly. Many of my gay friends were posting about his inaction - prevention of action - during the AIDS crisis & saying "let that be his legacy." The fact that we now realize it could have actually been much worse, well, that doesn't move my thermostat to "warm".

At least he didn't fuck up the end of the Soviet Union, that's one of the most positive developments of my lifetime.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby sloopjohnc » 03 Dec 2018, 18:59

I also think a lot of his legacy also has a lot do with "birds of a feather." Pals like Sununu, Cheney, etc., don't do anything to help him.

He was a nasty campaigner, as outlined previously, and his ambition overshadows some of his works.

He wanted to run for President, after only being a congressman, envoy to China, and CIA director for a year. He wasn't Reagan's first choice as VP.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Sneelock » 03 Dec 2018, 20:33

I think it was smart politics. there's something powerful about two rivals shaking hands and forging on together. I'll bet H.W. had a lot to do with the nuts & bolts of some of the Reagan Administrations more ghastly foreign policy decisions.

it's amazing to watch Reagan & Bush debating immigration policy from those debates. both advocated compassionate and proactive "path to citizenship" policies which would sound completely mad coming from any "moderate" politician today. only the full blown lefties really speak of the issue as plainly and with such certainty nowadays.
Last edited by Sneelock on 04 Dec 2018, 06:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Count Machuki » 03 Dec 2018, 21:58

Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby sloopjohnc » 03 Dec 2018, 23:15



That is funny.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Jimbo » 04 Dec 2018, 16:02

sloopjohnc wrote:
That is funny.


His invasion of Panama was hilarious.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby sloopjohnc » 04 Dec 2018, 16:11

Jimbo wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
That is funny.


His invasion of Panama was hilarious.
Image


Apparently, you didn't see the Onion cartoon.

I know it always gets attention when someone posts a photo of shacks or helpless victims decimated by, what we can assume, are mortars or tanks or whatever. It's terrible that it happens to the least deserving.

But the Panama Canal was US owned, strategically located, and Noriega set himself up as dictator despite a popular vote of the people for democratic government. The U.S. did a much more limited foray into the country that it could've done.

Governments, and Presidents (the move was also approved by the Senate, starting with a resolution) have to make unpopular decisions sometimes.

I don't get your point.

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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Jimbo » 04 Dec 2018, 17:48

sloopjohnc wrote:
I don't get your point.



GHW Bush was a war criminal. I had forgotten about Panama and was reminded about Bush's role in Panama - and elsewhere - via a Noam Chomsky clip embedded in a Jimmy Dore video. I'd post the Jimmy Dore vid but it'd probably not get watched because ... who knows. Chomsky says there were diplomatic measures Bush was legally obligated to take but didn't and invaded instead. You can believe the rah! rah! propaganda if you like. I believe Chomsky.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Sneelock » 04 Dec 2018, 18:27

I'd put Panama in my aforementioned "column B" myself.
here is MY favorite snapshot of "Operation Just Cause"
Image
they knew Noreiga was BUGNUTS when they propped him up. well, if they didn't know they should have known. I think undoing what shouldn't have been done in the first place could certainly have been done without butchering so many human beings in the process.
https://www.oas.org/en/iachr/media_cent ... 18/258.asp
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby sloopjohnc » 04 Dec 2018, 18:46

Sneelock wrote:I'd put Panama in my aforementioned "column B" myself.
here is MY favorite snapshot of "Operation Just Cause"
Image
they knew Noreiga was BUGNUTS when they propped him up. well, if they didn't know they should have known. I think undoing what shouldn't have been done in the first place could certainly have been done without butchering so many human beings in the process.
https://www.oas.org/en/iachr/media_cent ... 18/258.asp


Unfortunately, that has been the case with many dictators and strongmen the US has propped up: Iran, etc, etc.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Jimbo » 04 Dec 2018, 19:25

sloopjohnc wrote:
Sneelock wrote:I'd put Panama in my aforementioned "column B" myself.
here is MY favorite snapshot of "Operation Just Cause"
Image
they knew Noreiga was BUGNUTS when they propped him up. well, if they didn't know they should have known. I think undoing what shouldn't have been done in the first place could certainly have been done without butchering so many human beings in the process.
https://www.oas.org/en/iachr/media_cent ... 18/258.asp


Unfortunately, that has been the case with many dictators and strongmen the US has propped up: Iran, etc, etc.


You are right that it isn't/wasn't just GHW Bush who's led the US into bloody madness like Panama. Chomsky says most US presidents would/should be held liable under the Nuremberg laws. They're all war criminals he says. That's why I feel with all this information at our fingertips these days we shouldn't ignore facts. Sloop's explanation of the Panama invasion was almost quaint, so 1989. Hey, I liked Poppy. I cheered at his invasion of Iraq. The Vietnam syndrome was done. The US military was back in action and so badass. But now I know better because I know better thanks to the internet. GHW Bush should not done what he did, neither should Bill Clinton have bombed Serbia, nor should W gone into Iraq and the same goes for Obama and Libya. And now Trump??? War criminals. I do, however, kind of see Carter a bit rosier. I may get actually sentimental about the guy when he dies, which shouldn't be long coming. Am I wrong?
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Sneelock » 04 Dec 2018, 19:34

ask Noam Chomsky. ;)
Carter Admin armed Suharto and sheilded apartheid-era South African atrocities at the UN.

you supported Operation Desert Shield? give me 50 push-ups right the fuck now.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Count Machuki » 04 Dec 2018, 20:03

Jimbo wrote:But now I know better because I know better thanks to the internet.


This just might be the most Jimbo thing I've ever read.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Sneelock » 04 Dec 2018, 21:45

I liked this piece in the Baffler
https://thebaffler.com/latest/a-christm ... y-schwartz
while powerful people liked him, most of us didn’t. We do now, though, and it’s a Christmas miracle.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Jimbo » 05 Dec 2018, 03:31

Image

The internet reminded me of how when GHW Bush was vice-president there was the US shoot down of an Iranian airliner killing 290 people. In response Poppy said, "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Jimbo » 05 Dec 2018, 05:46



The good and the bad, this is a pretty fair perspective.
Some say the glass is half-empty others half-full. I say. "Lemme see that glass!"

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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Geezee » 05 Dec 2018, 10:02

Count Machuki wrote:
Jimbo wrote:But now I know better because I know better thanks to the internet.


This just might be the most Jimbo thing I've ever read.


:D
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby sloopjohnc » 05 Dec 2018, 18:20

Eulogies by Alan Simpson, his son, the former President, and historian, Jon Meacham, were very moving.
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Re: George H.W. Bush has passed away

Postby Jimbo » 05 Dec 2018, 23:51

The Guardian’s Bush obituary plumbs new depths of sycophantic hypocrisy
...
The whole article is an exercise in talking without saying anything. Pleasantries replacing truth. Platitudes where facts should be. A nothing burger, with a void on the side and an extra order of beige.

It’s an obituary of Harold Shipman that eschews murder talk and rhapsodises about his love of gardening.

A eulogy to Pinochet that praises his economic reforms but neglects all the soccer stadiums full of corpses.

An epitaph to Hitler that focuses, not on his “controversial political career”, but on his painting and his vegetarianism.

Did you know Genghis Khan once lent me a pencil? He was a swell guy. The world will miss him.

We’re no longer supposed to examine the lives, characters or morals of our leaders. Only “honour their memory” and be “grateful for their service”. History is presented to us, not as a series of choices made by people in power, but as a collection of inevitabilities. Consequences are tragic but unavoidable. Like long-dead family squabbles – To dwell on them is unseemly, and to assign blame unfair.


https://off-guardian.org/2018/12/03/the ... hypocrisy/

Guardian obit here. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... sense-duty
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