What value do you place on your national identity?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Goat Boy » 26 Nov 2018, 21:12

There's a comfort in the familiarity. The accents, the street signs, the food, the architecture and so on.

Some things you can't shake off even if you would like to. As much as I enjoy going on holiday whenever I come home I feel something similar. It's simply part of who I am and I'm fine with that.

I might write more because it's something that really interests me and because my relationship with my country and my identity has changed over the years and kind of come full circle.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 26 Nov 2018, 21:24

Goat Boy wrote:There's a comfort in the familiarity. The accents, the street signs, the food, the architecture and so on.


Definitely that, but also the simple fact that a lot of the things you treasure from your own country just aren't available elsewhere.
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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Goat Boy » 26 Nov 2018, 21:27

Are you talking about biscuits, John?
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 26 Nov 2018, 21:29

:lol:

I didn't want to give Wilson any more ammo
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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Goat Boy » 26 Nov 2018, 21:36

I've heard Matt has a Captain America tattoo on his back and it's the size of a food tray!
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 26 Nov 2018, 21:45

You've eaten off it, haven't you?

FILTHY BOY
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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Goat Boy » 26 Nov 2018, 21:47

boak
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Bent Fabric » 26 Nov 2018, 22:15

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:It doesn't sit comfortably with a lot of people, that kind of sentiment - I know.


I honestly don't get the objection.

I think it's the type of thing any person would aspire to (or envy), that sense of joy when you come back home, that strength of positive and warm feeling about one's place of residence or origin. Some sense of its singularity.

I'm certain there's people who look at even the most seemingly objectionable ambient realities of their environs (horns honking, the smell of drunks pissing in alleys, smog, car alarms) with a certain contentedness.

Seems like a type of zen, really.

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 26 Nov 2018, 23:17

Ah yeah. There’s a distinction between neighbourhood and nation, of course.
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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Bent Fabric » 26 Nov 2018, 23:33

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Ah yeah. There’s a distinction between neighbourhood and nation, of course.



Obviously, but...there's things ABOUT a country that we probably treasure as if it WERE neighborhood specific (customs, food, smells, etc.).

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 26 Nov 2018, 23:43

Yes, absolutely (I immediately thought of the local chippie after reading your post - and locals saying 'ach you won't find better fish and chips anywhere else in the country!' - and this being kind of true and absolute nonsense at the same time :lol: )
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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Bent Fabric » 27 Nov 2018, 00:41

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Yes, absolutely (I immediately thought of the local chippie after reading your post - and locals saying 'ach you won't find better fish and chips anywhere else in the country!' - and this being kind of true and absolute nonsense at the same time :lol: )


That stuff's funny to me - there's restaurants near me, or sort of local/regional ways of preparing food, where...yes, I'm utterly convinced that "This is the gold standard", and...says ME, you know?

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Goat Boy » 27 Nov 2018, 11:23

I’m Scottish, British and to a much lesser extent European but identity is fluid and I’ve changed quite a bit over the years. When I was younger I very much identified as Scottish rather than British and during my late teens and early 20s I was quite the patriotic type in fact. Partly this was down to the influence of my Father who’s patriotism is of the romantic, misty eyed variety but also because I was going through a dodgy period personally and patriotism was a way of counteracting general feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem. By my mid-twenties things had changed quite a bit and as I toyed with the idea of emigrating I viewed Scotland and Britain overwhelmingly negatively. With hindsight I think this was me simply shedding the skin of my former self combined with an assertion of my individuality whereby rejecting my country was a necessary act of personal growth or some shit. Identity can be a bit suffocating and because it is handed down to you like some fusty old coat from a grandparent it’s natural to reject it at some point as an act of youthful rebellion. This rejection was clearly exacerbated by silly left wing anarchist posturing that makes me cringe these days. However identity can also be a hard thing to shake completely and over the years I’m found myself rekindling my relationship with my country and as I’ve gotten older and my politics have softened and become more conciliatory I’ve found myself reconnecting with Britain in general. The nationalist movement has contributed to this too and my Britishness is, at least in part, a reaction to it. I should add that my Mother is from Yorkshire, the lass is too and I have English best friends.


Like any lifelong relationship it’s complicated. There are things I dislike about Scotland and Britain. I dislike Scotland’s chip on its shoulder pettiness, its tedious victimhood status that still rears its ugly little head, most obviously during the independence debate. I don’t like how we revel in being plucky losers and I dislike the fact that we celebrate the hokier aspects of our culture, the shortbread tin vision of Scotland rather than the Scotland of, say Hume and the Enlightenment. I kinda feel that that’s a Celtic thing too – misplaced romanticism, myths and legends - but at least the Irish still celebrate their literature although maybe that’s down to a reaction against “the thick Irish” prejudice they’ve had to put up with over the years. We’re a contradictory country. On one hand we revel in our underdog status, the eternal plucky loser but we contributed massively to the Empire and fully embraced the worst aspects of it. I guess it’s easier, more convenient to view ourselves as losers and of course not facing up to your countries darker moments is universal. We are hardly alone in that. It’s also a way of distancing ourselves from the sins of the English too and that’s important because obviously we are completely different (notice that Scotland is apparently socialist as well by the way, unlike our conservative chums down south). I don’t view the Empire as some kind of wholly disgusting enterprise that should serve as a permanent stain on the nation’s history and character. I think there is a lot to admire in what some of these people did whilst also accepting there is a lot to be critical about too obviously. They were men and women of their time with everything that entails but I would be lying if I didn’t look at some of the achievements of Scots abroad and feel some kind of residual pride. For such a small country we have contributed a hell of a lot. Did any of that have anything to do with me? Well, obviously not, but do I feel a little bit of pride in this fact? Yeah a wee bit. Of course it’s bullshit but there you do. On one level it’s all bullshit I guess.

We appear to be well liked abroad but usually as caricatures which is predictable I guess. We do have a strong identity even if it’s an invention (Cheers Walter Scott). Whenever I tell people abroad I’m Scottish I have never received any hostility anyway. I suspect it’s different for some countries (England, America, Israel). Maybe this distancing from the English and the Empire is just another example of Scottish canniness.

We have a great sense of humour and, importantly, we swear fantastically well. Scots words and phrases are a real joy and I find them more entertaining than their English equivalents. Our outlook is generally glass half empty but this is where our black humour comes from. We are occasional romantic fantasists but we also dour Presbyterian realists and it’s the tension between the two that ultimately makes us Scottish I think.

Truthfully, I think we are fucking great
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Toby » 27 Nov 2018, 11:44

Some great posts on here.

It is a peculiar thing and one that I think we all need to address individually at some point. There is a Doug Stanhope quote where he says "Nationalism does nothing but teach you to hate people you never met, and to take pride in accomplishments you had no part in" and I feel that there's some truth in that. When we revel in our country's output, we are essentially leaping onto the back of other people's work as it were our own - completely by accident we are claiming to be part of something.

But then at the same time, there is a fuzzy and ambiguous line of where "culture" stops and begins elsewhere. And by speaking the language etc, it is totally understandable that we want to be a "part" of something and to "own" as well. When we state our many identities, I'm sure that the country of our origin is in most people high on the list. It defines to a certain extent our outlook and our attitudes to life. One can't say for certain that a Japanese person is going to have the attitudes you might expect, but it is likely that the culture of their language, their upbringing, their social attitudes etc etc are going to play a significant part somewhere along the line.

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby Goat Boy » 27 Nov 2018, 12:58

Well there is a distinction between nationalism and patriotism isn't there. The latter is benign mostly.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: What value do you place on your national identity?

Postby sloopjohnc » 27 Nov 2018, 17:16

I've spent a fair amount of extended times in Britain and some of the things that have stood out for me once I've returned home through the years. Some of these things aren't as true anymore.

The width of the streets and size of the cars and houses in the US.

The amount of TV channels - this used to be true, but not anymore.

The amount of different kinds of ethnic cuisines you can get, even true in London vs. the suburbs I grew up in. And how much more is in supermarkets

Bars stink compared to pubs

Lack of good mass transit in the US and how many people just walk to places in the UK compared to California

Better customer service in the US

The modernity of household appliances

The friendliness of Americans compared to Brits.

The last time I went I was shocked by the amount of white people - there were just so many, comparatively

How close everything is in the UK compared to California
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