antisemitism

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The Modernist
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Re: antisemitism

Postby The Modernist » 21 Nov 2018, 16:52

Rayge wrote:
DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Yes - that rings true.

I'm still not clear as to why it's such a problem in the UK right now. Especially in academic circles. I might need to look at some stats...


Because the right-wing newspapers are focusing on it to discredit the Left. There have been Jew-haters all over the right ever since there was a right - that cunt Churchill for a start – but there's never a flap about that.


This. It's a pretty effective tactic.

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Re: antisemitism

Postby Fonz » 21 Nov 2018, 16:55

Davey, in your view is it the idea of a 'powerful Jewish lobby' that is antisemitic, even if there is an actual powerful Jewish lobby?
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Re: antisemitism

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Nov 2018, 16:56

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:On the larger topic:

A Christian minister I met at a party once described antisemitism as “fear of God.” His argument was that the Jews, as chosen people, were the tribe of people that God chose to speak through - as all of the initial prophets of Western monotheism (Abraham, Moses, King David, etc...) were Jews. His read of it was, that amounted to a kind of “hate the messenger” dynamic. I don’t know if all of that is true, but I think it does point the way to how deep all of this goes.


I agree with everything else you wrote, but this seems to me a total misreading or misperception of the whole new testament in the Bible.

I would say that the new testament is a bridge or broader awakening and Christ was the conduit. Maybe Christians are still pissed off that the Jewish people were God's favored children or the "chosen ones," if you will. But then every Christian sect wants to be seen as favored in their reading of scriptures and following of God. Probably the same reason we have Sunnis, Shiites, and Sufis.

Still, I think that's a limited understanding, based on the new testament.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Fonz » 21 Nov 2018, 16:58

Rayge wrote:
Because the right-wing newspapers are focusing on it to discredit the Left. There have been Jew-haters all over the right ever since there was a right - that cunt Churchill for a start – but there's never a flap about that.


Are you being sarcastic Rayge?

Churchill was pretty much the biggest ally the Jews ever had...
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Copehead » 21 Nov 2018, 17:02

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:The current anti-Corbyn-type of antisemitism in the UK is bullshit, a backfiring political ploy by Israel supporters and not real hatred of Jews.


Does antisemitism require “real hatred of Jews” - or do thoughtless tropes being perpetuated by well-meaning people count?

The thread we had here on Corbyn being a case in point. It drew me in for a while because it was initiated with the following statement:

Let's be clear here, what we are seeing is a coordinated campaign of vilification by the powerful Jewish lobby ( and let's not shy away from calling them that for it is what they are)


I have no doubt that the author of this holds no hate for Jews (or anyone else) in their heart. But this is clearly an antisemetic statement, and it went mostly unchecked and undetected by most.

Conflating the politically pro-Israel lobby with a “Jewish lobby” may seem like a small thing to most here, but it is exactly the kind of talk that makes room for the “real” hate Jimbo alludes to. If you are a person who is already primed to dislike Jews for other reasons, talk of a “Jewish lobby” followed by a defiant, “let’s not shy away from calling them that...” is going to hit your ears differently than the average BCBer.

I have no doubt that the UK Israel lobby (or whatever the UK corollary to AIPAC is) is busy conflating all objections to Netanyahu-era policies with antisemitism. In that sense, they help to spread antisemitism themselves. But their dishonesty and carelessness does not wipe away the dishonesty and carelessness of those who allow political disagreements with Israel to be framed as the work of a “powerful Jewish lobby.”

In the context of all that we know, words must be chosen carefully when wading into these waters.


The only problem with the statement:

Let's be clear here, what we are seeing is a coordinated campaign of vilification by the powerful Jewish lobby ( and let's not shy away from calling them that for it is what they are)


is, as you say, the unthinking use of an anti-Semitic trope. We should never conflate Judaism, Jewish ethnicity and Israel. Some of the most fanatical anti-Israeli people I've ever met have been left wing Jews.

if it has said:

Let's be clear here, what we are seeing is a coordinated campaign of vilification by the powerful Israeli Government lobby


it would have been on the money.

Let's not forget the Israeli diplomat doing the rounds at last years Labour Party conference openly offering money to anti-Corbyn Labour MPs for their "support".

You are bang on the money with that one, the Netanyahu Government brazenly, considering his cosying up to real anti-semities like Orban, conflate criticism of their governmental policy with anti-Semitism with the enthusiastic support of the political right in many Western Countries.

His politics obviously being closer to, what I suppose we must call, his heart than his ethnicity.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Jimbo » 21 Nov 2018, 17:16

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Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Y’know, I read this in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, y’know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to them.

But see the current problem with the expanded definition is that even if one is critical of the "Israel lobby" or are a BDS supporter, you can legally be charged with a hate crime. Frankly, I don't know what's going on punitively in the re-definition gambit but public shaming seems to be a punishment option.

Funny, the old argument was are Jews a race or a religion. Now we need to add political party to the question.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 17:18

Copehead wrote:
The only problem with the statement:


Yes - we agree about that. But can we also agree that it is not a small distinction? I’m not splitting hairs here. The difference between “Israeli Government Lobby” and “Jewish lobby” is the difference between an antisemitic statement and a defensible one.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 17:21

Fonz wrote:Davey, in your view is it the idea of a 'powerful Jewish lobby' that is antisemitic, even if there is an actual powerful Jewish lobby?


There is a powerful Israel lobby that is primarily run by right-wing Jews (with the partnership of right-wing non-Jews). They are not a Jewish lobby. They don’t speak for all Jews.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 17:23

Jimbo wrote:Image
Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Y’know, I read this in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, y’know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to them.

But see the current problem with the expanded definition is that even if one is critical of the "Israel lobby" or are a BDS supporter, you can legally be charged with a hate crime. Frankly, I don't know what's going on punitively in the re-definition gambit but public shaming seems to be a punishment option.

Funny, the old argument was are Jews a race or a religion. Now we need to add political party to the question.


I call bullshit.

Where is it a legal hate crime to oppose the Israel lobby?
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2018, 17:24

Fonz wrote:Are you being sarcastic Rayge?


No. He was a product of the late Victorian and Edwardian upper classes, who equated Judaism with Marxism and anarchist movements – I remember some quotes from my reding on the Houndsditch Murders/siege of Sydney Street – and wrote about Jewish conspiracies in the 1920s. He certainly supported Zionism, but that doesn't necessarily mean he liked 'Jews': maybe he thought they should have a homeland so they could all fuck off to it

Fonz wrote:Churchill was pretty much the biggest ally the Jews ever had...

I've heard this said, and read the justifications for it, but it's failed to overcome my prejudice. He was an equal opportunity racist, thogh, didn't have a good word to say about black brown or red people either.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 17:26

sloopjohnc wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:On the larger topic:

A Christian minister I met at a party once described antisemitism as “fear of God.” His argument was that the Jews, as chosen people, were the tribe of people that God chose to speak through - as all of the initial prophets of Western monotheism (Abraham, Moses, King David, etc...) were Jews. His read of it was, that amounted to a kind of “hate the messenger” dynamic. I don’t know if all of that is true, but I think it does point the way to how deep all of this goes.


I agree with everything else you wrote, but this seems to me a total misreading or misperception of the whole new testament in the Bible.

I would say that the new testament is a bridge or broader awakening and Christ was the conduit. Maybe Christians are still pissed off that the Jewish people were God's favored children or the "chosen ones," if you will. But then every Christian sect wants to be seen as favored in their reading of scriptures and following of God. Probably the same reason we have Sunnis, Shiites, and Sufis.

Still, I think that's a limited understanding, based on the new testament.


The minister I was talking to would include Jesus among the Jewish prophets.

His point was more philosophical than you are allowing.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Jimbo » 21 Nov 2018, 17:49

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
The only problem with the statement:


The difference between “Israeli Government Lobby” and “Jewish lobby” is the difference between an antisemitic statement and a defensible one.


You'd think but it isn't so in the UK at the moment. And it is Israel's own fault. Rather than dealing with the Palestinians more peacefully, more diplomatically, more cleverly, less violently, somehow more differently than now, they're trying to gaslight their allies into being more staunch in their support. It's nuts. And the fucked up thing is that Israel is making shit worse for the Jews. And let's not be naive, there are some liberal Jews who want a peaceful solution but a lot of Jews are Israel right or wrong!

Re your bullshit call.

According to the the UK’s College of Policing
"a working definition of antisemitism in their guidance to police forces in the UK.

Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.

In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Fonz » 21 Nov 2018, 18:12

Rayge wrote:
Fonz wrote:Are you being sarcastic Rayge?


No. He was a product of the late Victorian and Edwardian upper classes, who equated Judaism with Marxism and anarchist movements – I remember some quotes from my reding on the Houndsditch Murders/siege of Sydney Street – and wrote about Jewish conspiracies in the 1920s. He certainly supported Zionism, but that doesn't necessarily mean he liked 'Jews': maybe he thought they should have a homeland so they could all fuck off to it

Fonz wrote:Churchill was pretty much the biggest ally the Jews ever had...

I've heard this said, and read the justifications for it, but it's failed to overcome my prejudice. He was an equal opportunity racist, thogh, didn't have a good word to say about black brown or red people either.


Martin Gilbert’s ‘Churchill and the Jews’ is a good read, and details Churchill’s pro-Zionist/pro-Jew position, from his time in Manchester to his death.

A good read.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 18:56

How do you get from:

In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity.


To

Jimbo wrote: “..even if one is critical of the "Israel lobby" or are a BDS supporter, you can legally be charged with a hate crime.”


Do you have trouble understanding the words “conceived as a Jewish collectivity?”
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Jimbo » 21 Nov 2018, 19:18

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:How do you get from:

In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity.


To

Jimbo wrote: “..even if one is critical of the "Israel lobby" or are a BDS supporter, you can legally be charged with a hate crime.”


Do you have trouble understanding the words “conceived as a Jewish collectivity?”


I don't even know what " a Jewish collectivity" means. How is it the first and original part is clear and then the slapped on bit is gobbledygook. Is that what Corbyn had done to be branded anti-Semitic, upset the Jewish collectivity?

You may be right that I overstated my point, insulting the Israeli lobby per se is not a hate crime but the larger point is that Israel is interfering with British politics with this cockamamie definition and pressuring - slandering - anyone who is against Israel's policies. There"s your tampering, meddling, disrupting, dividing, etc.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Copehead » 21 Nov 2018, 19:44

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
The only problem with the statement:


Yes - we agree about that. But can we also agree that it is not a small distinction? I’m not splitting hairs here. The difference between “Israeli Government Lobby” and “Jewish lobby” is the difference between an antisemitic statement and a defensible one.


I whole heartedly agree with you.

It is even important to put the word Government in there rather than label the whole state as a problem, although some on the Left would disagree.

Perhaps even throw in the word current, although I don't think there has been a morally acceptable, on my terms, government of Israel for many years now, perhaps decades, since the invasion of Lebanon.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 19:50

Jimbo wrote:I don't even know what " a Jewish collectivity" means.


So...why doesn’t it occur to you to try to reconcile the inclusion of those words before you start characterizing their meaning?

Do you get why nobody here trusts you and your opinions?


Jimbo wrote:but the larger point is that Israel is interfering with British politics with this cockamamie definition and pressuring - slandering - anyone who is against Israel's policies. There"s your tampering, meddling, disrupting, dividing, etc.


The definition is fine. It is different to criticize Israeli state policy than it is to paint Israel as a place worthy of hate because of all the Jews.

Yes - the current Israeli government and its lobby actively works to manipulate western nations. But the criticisms of Corbyn’s hestitance on the definition of antisemitism are completely valid.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Copehead » 21 Nov 2018, 19:52

Jimbo wrote:but a lot of Jews are Israel right or wrong!


And it is not difficult to understand why.

But there must be an awful lot of "nose holding" ( not in anti-Semitic Jewish nose trope way :? ) going on in the more liberal members of that demographic now surely?

At what stage does a liberal Jew who craves a Jewish homeland because of the horrors of the 20th century turn round and say " but not one that acts like that"?

It must be a very difficult position to be in, I have immense respect for Jewish leftists who denounce current Israeli Government policy because it puts them in a very difficult position and they get masses of abuse for it.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Jimbo » 22 Nov 2018, 06:11

Copehead wrote:[ I have immense respect for Jewish leftists who denounce current Israeli Government policy because it puts them in a very difficult position and they get masses of abuse for it.




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Re: antisemitism

Postby Fonz » 22 Nov 2018, 07:43

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Fonz wrote:Davey, in your view is it the idea of a 'powerful Jewish lobby' that is antisemitic, even if there is an actual powerful Jewish lobby?


There is a powerful Israel lobby that is primarily run by right-wing Jews (with the partnership of right-wing non-Jews). They are not a Jewish lobby. They don’t speak for all Jews.



I googled ‘Jewish Lobby’, and indeed,it is regarded as a pejorative, by many, though not all.
I didn’t realise this. I suspect most people using the term casually might not realise this.
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