antisemitism

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
User avatar
Jimbo
Posts: 15642
Joined: 26 Dec 2009, 21:22

Re: antisemitism

Postby Jimbo » 21 Nov 2018, 14:20

The current anti-Corbyn-type of antisemitism in the UK is bullshit, a backfiring political ploy by Israel supporters and not real hatred of Jews.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” Mark Twain

User avatar
$P.Muff$
Posts: 346
Joined: 30 Sep 2018, 01:25

Re: antisemitism

Postby $P.Muff$ » 21 Nov 2018, 14:27

Because white, limp dick motherfuckers feel threatend by everything except other white, limp dick motherfuckers.

User avatar
Butch Manly
Utter Cad
Posts: 51285
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: antisemitism

Postby Butch Manly » 21 Nov 2018, 14:39

Jimbo wrote:The current anti-Corbyn-type of antisemitism in the UK is bullshit, a backfiring political ploy by Israel supporters and not real hatred of Jews.


I was out for a few pints with my (Jewish) mate Dan last week - hadn't seen him since the spring since we no longer work together - and when we got onto the demonisation of Corbyn with the anti-semitism smear he just looked at me, wide-eyed and shaking his head, and said "Fucking hell! FUCK-ING HELL!!" before expressing his new-found disgust for both the BBC and The Grauniad for their part in it. Still, what would he know?

Anti-semitism is fucking vile, of course, but it's not Corbyn we should be looking at. It's the legitimisation of the likes of Yaxley-Lennon and his nasty followers, not to mention Farage and his two or three degrees of separation from the KKK, by the Beeb.

In Poland, PiS, the party in power (and part of the broad far-right group in the European parliament that the Tories align themselves with), have long been closely associated with Radio Maria, a supposedly Christian radio station who remind their listeners every day that "Jesus was crucified by the Jews." Jesus fucking Christ, indeed. Meanwhile, Netanyahu is happy to rub shoulders with anti-semites like that cunt in Brazil and the delightful Viktor Orban.

My point in all of this is that we find ourselves in a situation where the demonisation of actually decent anti-racists for the purposes of wider political aims (be they those of Blairites, Tories, Netanyahu or whoever) ill-serves Jewish people around the world by empowering the real anti-semites. You couldn't make it up.
Goatboy to Belle:

"I suggest you retreat to the safety of your Facebook bubble. Griff has a post he needs you to like."

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 13680
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: antisemitism

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2018, 14:42

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Yes but to the vast majority of people, it's used to mean exactly that. As you well know. Original meanings are not relevant and you're showing off again. :)

Only partially showing off: the Oily Levantine and Trickster Arab stereotypes were part of the deal, along with the hook-nosed banker/miser and 'Jewish pervert' in the 1950s, at least.
Chip reported that her father, accused of anti-semitism because of some remark he made about a Jewish person (she didn't remember what, but it probably was hate speech: her dad was no angel, even for the time), responded loftedly and confoundingly, 'On the contrary, some of my best friends are Arabs'.
DRUGS SNAKE wrote:But thanks for the rest of your post - and the other one.

You're welcome :)
In timeless moments we live forever

You can't play a tune on an absolute

Negative Capability...when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason”

User avatar
Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings
hounds people off the board
Posts: 19603
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21
Location: selling a self-detonating James Last CD to a Copenhagen thrift store

Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 14:44

$P.Muff$ wrote:Because white, limp dick motherfuckers feel threatend by everything except other white, limp dick motherfuckers.


Right.

Have you never had to be told 'I'm Jewish, by the way'?
Darkness_Fish wrote:This is a big fucking mess of absolute shit from the off.

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 13680
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: antisemitism

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2018, 14:46

Butch Manly wrote:A supposedly Christian radio station who remind their listeners every day that "Jesus was crucified by the Jews."

Last time I heard that, I told the div that no, Christ was a Jew, and he was crucified by the Romans. So go bomb the fucking Vatican.
In timeless moments we live forever

You can't play a tune on an absolute

Negative Capability...when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason”

User avatar
Jimbo
Posts: 15642
Joined: 26 Dec 2009, 21:22

Re: antisemitism

Postby Jimbo » 21 Nov 2018, 14:51

Rayge wrote:
Butch Manly wrote:A supposedly Christian radio station who remind their listeners every day that "Jesus was crucified by the Jews."

Last time I heard that, I told the div that no, Christ was a Jew, and he was crucified by the Romans. So go bomb the fucking Vatican.


I read an interesting theory that Jesus the prince of peace was invented by the Romans to chill out the messiah-believing rebelling Hebrews. Oh look, here's your messiah! Render unto Caesar and turn the other cheek, all Roman propaganda.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” Mark Twain

User avatar
$P.Muff$
Posts: 346
Joined: 30 Sep 2018, 01:25

Re: antisemitism

Postby $P.Muff$ » 21 Nov 2018, 14:57

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:
$P.Muff$ wrote:Because white, limp dick motherfuckers feel threatend by everything except other white, limp dick motherfuckers.


Right.

Have you never had to be told 'I'm Jewish, by the way'?


Not sure I understand the question.

I know only a handful of non-practising Jewish people.

User avatar
Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings
hounds people off the board
Posts: 19603
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21
Location: selling a self-detonating James Last CD to a Copenhagen thrift store

Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 14:58

I was just making the point that Jews aren't always 'visible'.
Darkness_Fish wrote:This is a big fucking mess of absolute shit from the off.

User avatar
Butch Manly
Utter Cad
Posts: 51285
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: antisemitism

Postby Butch Manly » 21 Nov 2018, 15:01

Rayge wrote:
DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Yes - that rings true.

I'm still not clear as to why it's such a problem in the UK right now. Especially in academic circles. I might need to look at some stats...


Because the right-wing newspapers are focusing on it to discredit the Left. There have been Jew-haters all over the right ever since there was a right - that cunt Churchill for a start – but there's never a flap about that.


Indeed.

Over a quarter of British people 'hold anti-Semitic attitudes', study finds

By Callum May

BBC News 13 September 2017


More than a quarter of British people hold at least one anti-Semitic view, according to a study of attitudes to Jewish people.

The Institute for Jewish Policy Research (JPR) said the finding came from the largest and most detailed survey of attitudes towards Jews and Israel ever conducted in Britain.

But it said the study did not mean that British people were anti-Semitic.

Researchers also found a correlation in anti-Jewish and anti-Israel attitudes.

The study found a relatively small number of British adults - 2.4% - expressed multiple anti-Semitic attitudes "readily and confidently".

But when questioned about whether they agreed with a number of statements, including "Jews think they are better than other people", and "Jews exploit holocaust victimhood for their own purposes", 30% agreed with at least one statement.

Despite this, the researchers said they found that levels of anti-Semitism in Great Britain were among the lowest in the world.

A spokesman for the Community Security Trust, which has recorded high levels anti-Semitic crime, said: "We believe the new findings, data and nuance in this study will help us to work even more effectively with partners inside and outside the Jewish community to tackle this problem."

The report said about 70% of the population of Britain had a favourable opinion of Jews and did not hold any anti-Semitic ideas or views.

Muslim views
The JPR's researchers questioned 5,466 people face-to-face and online in the winter of 2016/17 - 995 of these were Muslims, although a smaller number of Muslims were included in the statisticians' nationally representative sample.

They found more than half of Muslims (55%) held at least one anti-Semitic attitude.

Dr Jonathan Boyd, director of the JPR, said: "Our intention here was not to make any broad generalisations about the Muslim population and their attitudes towards Jews.

"There does seem to be some relationship between levels of religiosity in the Muslim population and anti-Semitism."

The institute said it wanted to promote an "elastic view", making a distinction between people who are clearly anti-Semites, and ideas that are perceived by Jews as anti-Semitic.

In December 2016 the government adopted an internationally recognised definition of anti-Semitism: "a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews".

Questions on Israel
The researchers also questioned people about their views on statements about Israel and the conflict with the Palestinians.

Their report said fewer than one in five people questioned (17%) had a favourable opinion of Israel, whereas about one in three (33%) held an unfavourable view.

The report said: "The position of the British population towards Israel can be characterised as one of uncertainty or indifference, but among those who hold a view, people with sympathies towards the Palestinians are numerically dominant."

Dr Boyd said: "Anti-Israel and anti-Jewish views exist both together and in isolation.

"The higher the level of anti-Israel attitudes measured, the more likely they are to hold anti-Semitic views as well."

The study also revealed that anti-Semitic attitudes were higher than normal among people who classified their politics as "very right-wing".

Among this group they were two to four times higher than among the general population.

The researchers said the prevalence was considerably higher among right-wingers than on the left.

Rabbi Charley Baginsky, from the Liberal Judaism movement, said: "The report is important for helping us understand where the anxiety comes from within the community at large and for understanding why anti-Semitism seems to be the prevailing discourse within the community.

"We must be really careful that it does not come to define us and that we celebrate the positive interactions with society at large.

"What is arguably more important … is to educate and interact, to be more outward facing and open to discussion than inward facing."
Goatboy to Belle:

"I suggest you retreat to the safety of your Facebook bubble. Griff has a post he needs you to like."

User avatar
algroth
Posts: 5464
Joined: 04 Apr 2010, 03:12

Re: antisemitism

Postby algroth » 21 Nov 2018, 15:03

So, on the subject matter of anti-semitism and what constitutes as such, I have a friend of mine who once got into a barfight with another guy after the same repeatedly poked and goaded him into the same. Turns out the guy in question was Jewish, and though it was never apparent, known to anyone at the time and never came into the matter during their encounter, he still managed to file a report to the INADI over it. Ten years later and he is still unable to get a travel visa for the US over it. Not that I'm saying that this is a particularly common case or anything of the sort, but it's this sort of abuse of the term, and its use to refer to any sort of pro-Palestinian sentiment as Rayge mentioned prior, that really bastardizes the term and muddies the waters even further - as do those who resort to deliberate anti-semitic iconography, stereotypes and conspiracy theories in the name of non-hateful sentiments and whatnot on the opposite side.

User avatar
$P.Muff$
Posts: 346
Joined: 30 Sep 2018, 01:25

Re: antisemitism

Postby $P.Muff$ » 21 Nov 2018, 15:04

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:I was just making the point that Jews aren't always 'visible'.


Da Joos are a sneaky lot.

User avatar
Fonz
Posts: 3727
Joined: 17 Feb 2014, 14:10
Location: Nevermore

Re: antisemitism

Postby Fonz » 21 Nov 2018, 15:35

harvey k-tel wrote:
Fonz wrote:I grew up in an era when war films were a staple of Saturday night telly with my mum and dad. When the Nazis were on screen it was always with the implicit and explicit ndetstanding that they weren’t just ‘the bad guys’; they were evil, and another level of ‘bad’ beyond the normal German infantryman etc.

With the passage of time, WWII is considered ‘history’ that you can only learn from a book etc. In my youth, all the older generation had lived through the war, and perhaps had first-hand experience of that evil. They wouldn’t let you dismiss it as ‘something that happened to other people, a long time ago’. Without that direct experience to shape our young people’s perspective, the urgency of fighting antisemitism at its roots is somehow diluted.


DRUGS SNAKE wrote:So its rise is connected with the fact that younger generations aren't as mindful of past evils - particularly Nazism? That would make sense.


If younger generations can seemingly "get over" the idea that the Nazis were evil fucks, then why can't they get over the idea of some sort of Shylock-based stereotype of Jews?



I doubt that the younger generation even have that stereotype of Jew=Shylock for the most part.
My point was more that they wouldn’t necessarily equate antisemitism with Naziism, which my generation did, and so was automatically ‘a very bad thing’.
These days the water is muddied by the multitude of definitions of antisemitism, which as we have seen on other threads, is a confused minefield, even on a left-leaning board like this one.
Heyyyy!

"Fonz clearly has no fucks to give. I like the cut of his Cupicidal gib."

User avatar
Robert
Posts: 1054
Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 13:24

Re: antisemitism

Postby Robert » 21 Nov 2018, 15:39

Robert wrote:I agree, anti semitism has been around since counting began but from time to time becomes more prevalent and in your face.

I think it's probably a combination in Europe of growing Nationalism, increasing muslim populations, constant footage of the monstrosities of Israel on the telly and for kids these days WOII being a thing from history books. Not even their parents have lived it through and in some cases not even their grand parents sothat they are not hearing the the stories that we were getting from our parents about the war.



Interesting points Robert!

Love

xx

JC

User avatar
Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings
hounds people off the board
Posts: 19603
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21
Location: selling a self-detonating James Last CD to a Copenhagen thrift store

Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 15:46

:lol:
Darkness_Fish wrote:This is a big fucking mess of absolute shit from the off.

User avatar
sloopjohnc
Posts: 63868
Joined: 03 Jun 2004, 20:12

Re: antisemitism

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Nov 2018, 16:06

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
DRUGS SNAKE wrote:
Looks like we need a definition of 'antisemitism' because yours doesn't appear to be the same as mine...


I agree that my post didn't identify antisemitism, specifically, but what I tried to do was tie it into racism in America, generally.



Fair enough.

Maybe it's more of a thing in the UK - lots of stuff over the last year about how it's infected the Labour Party, and today this article in The Guardian which surprised me

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... field-trip

Are there increasing numbers of Jewish students in our universities?


Our legacy is slavery, and to a lesser degree, immigration, with the anti-Chinese laws and internment of Japanese in WWII as historical incidents.

Antisemitism plays a part, but not like it might in Europe.

Trump's son-in-law is Orthodox Jewish and his wife converted.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk!

User avatar
Davey the Fat Boy
Posts: 23785
Joined: 05 Jan 2006, 02:55
Location: Applebees

Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 16:10

Jimbo wrote:The current anti-Corbyn-type of antisemitism in the UK is bullshit, a backfiring political ploy by Israel supporters and not real hatred of Jews.


Does antisemitism require “real hatred of Jews” - or do thoughtless tropes being perpetuated by well-meaning people count?

The thread we had here on Corbyn being a case in point. It drew me in for a while because it was initiated with the following statement:

Let's be clear here, what we are seeing is a coordinated campaign of vilification by the powerful Jewish lobby ( and let's not shy away from calling them that for it is what they are)


I have no doubt that the author of this holds no hate for Jews (or anyone else) in their heart. But this is clearly an antisemetic statement, and it went mostly unchecked and undetected by most.

Conflating the politically pro-Israel lobby with a “Jewish lobby” may seem like a small thing to most here, but it is exactly the kind of talk that makes room for the “real” hate Jimbo alludes to. If you are a person who is already primed to dislike Jews for other reasons, talk of a “Jewish lobby” followed by a defiant, “let’s not shy away from calling them that...” is going to hit your ears differently than the average BCBer.

I have no doubt that the UK Israel lobby (or whatever the UK corollary to AIPAC is) is busy conflating all objections to Netanyahu-era policies with antisemitism. In that sense, they help to spread antisemitism themselves. But their dishonesty and carelessness does not wipe away the dishonesty and carelessness of those who allow political disagreements with Israel to be framed as the work of a “powerful Jewish lobby.”

In the context of all that we know, words must be chosen carefully when wading into these waters.
The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

Image

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 24190
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: antisemitism

Postby Copehead » 21 Nov 2018, 16:21

Butch Manly wrote:
Jimbo wrote:The current anti-Corbyn-type of antisemitism in the UK is bullshit, a backfiring political ploy by Israel supporters and not real hatred of Jews.


I was out for a few pints with my (Jewish) mate Dan last week - hadn't seen him since the spring since we no longer work together - and when we got onto the demonisation of Corbyn with the anti-semitism smear he just looked at me, wide-eyed and shaking his head, and said "Fucking hell! FUCK-ING HELL!!" before expressing his new-found disgust for both the BBC and The Grauniad for their part in it. Still, what would he know?

Anti-semitism is fucking vile, of course, but it's not Corbyn we should be looking at. It's the legitimisation of the likes of Yaxley-Lennon and his nasty followers, not to mention Farage and his two or three degrees of separation from the KKK, by the Beeb.

In Poland, PiS, the party in power (and part of the broad far-right group in the European parliament that the Tories align themselves with), have long been closely associated with Radio Maria, a supposedly Christian radio station who remind their listeners every day that "Jesus was crucified by the Jews." Jesus fucking Christ, indeed. Meanwhile, Netanyahu is happy to rub shoulders with anti-semites like that cunt in Brazil and the delightful Viktor Orban.

My point in all of this is that we find ourselves in a situation where the demonisation of actually decent anti-racists for the purposes of wider political aims (be they those of Blairites, Tories, Netanyahu or whoever) ill-serves Jewish people around the world by empowering the real anti-semites. You couldn't make it up.


As I pointed out to a Jewish friend of mine, who had become a bit lairy of Corbyn and the Labour Party because of the Anti-Semitism smears, if ( gods fucking forbid ) anyone ever came for Jewish people in the night again you could be pretty sure they would be coming from the political far right and you can be pretty sure it would be the political left ( of all stripes ) who would be standing in their way; as we have seen in the US after the synagogue massacre.

It has always been like that ( because at base left wing politics are internationalist and egalitarian and right wing politics are generally nationalistic and divisive ) and I think it always will be.

I too pointed out that the use of anti-Semitism as a handy political smear to beat the Labour party with is incredibly dangerous as it runs the risk of discrediting real anti-Semitism and gives it prominence in the national political discourse. Anti-Semitism certainly exists and is increasing at the moment but it isn't left wingers marching around in Nazified regalia chanting "The Jews will not replace us".
Nazi Punks, Nazi Punks, Nazi Punks, Fuck Off

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

Six String
Posts: 20183
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 20:22

Re: antisemitism

Postby Six String » 21 Nov 2018, 16:42

harvey k-tel wrote:
Fonz wrote:I grew up in an era when war films were a staple of Saturday night telly with my mum and dad. When the Nazis were on screen it was always with the implicit and explicit ndetstanding that they weren’t just ‘the bad guys’; they were evil, and another level of ‘bad’ beyond the normal German infantryman etc.

With the passage of time, WWII is considered ‘history’ that you can only learn from a book etc. In my youth, all the older generation had lived through the war, and perhaps had first-hand experience of that evil. They wouldn’t let you dismiss it as ‘something that happened to other people, a long time ago’. Without that direct experience to shape our young people’s perspective, the urgency of fighting antisemitism at its roots is somehow diluted.


DRUGS SNAKE wrote:So its rise is connected with the fact that younger generations aren't as mindful of past evils - particularly Nazism? That would make sense.


If younger generations can seemingly "get over" the idea that the Nazis were evil fucks, then why can't they get over the idea of some sort of Shylock-based stereotype of Jews?


Excellent point John.

User avatar
Davey the Fat Boy
Posts: 23785
Joined: 05 Jan 2006, 02:55
Location: Applebees

Re: antisemitism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 16:46

On the larger topic:

A Christian minister I met at a party once described antisemitism as “fear of God.” His argument was that the Jews, as chosen people, were the tribe of people that God chose to speak through - as all of the initial prophets of Western monotheism (Abraham, Moses, King David, etc...) were Jews. His read of it was, that amounted to a kind of “hate the messenger” dynamic. I don’t know if all of that is true, but I think it does point the way to how deep all of this goes.

From a Christian and Muslim POV, Jews can be seen by some as “people who reject the word of God” - so some antisemitism makes complete sense.

Then you have the whole Shylock/Rothschild/Soros continuum of economic antisemitism, which probably has its roots in the “they killed Jesus” meme - and extended from there.

Finally - there is the political strain of antisemitism that springs forth from the existence of Israel as a state (made more convoluted by the legitimate distaste many have for the actions of its current incarnation).

In today’s world, strains of all of the above (and more) make up a convoluted soup of reasons anyone can use to justify hating. People live to blame “the other.”
The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

Image