antisemitism

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 12:50

Leaving aside the obvious stuff about it being inexcusable and evil - why is this apparently rearing its ugly head again? why are they taking students to Auschwitz to educate them?
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Re: antisemitism

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Nov 2018, 12:59

In America at least, it's always been there, but Trump has given tacit permission for these folks. His comments on not understanding the term "nationalism" are either an expression of ignorance or a wink and a nudge to these groups.

I think the combination of Trump, the disinterested Republican party, disenfranchised white guys, the Incel movement, etc. are kindling to the flame here. There's no guy like John McCain to dissuade supporters, like he did to a woman at one of his rallies, that Obama was not muslim.

And that's another point. Trump is a swing of the pendulum to Obama's presidency. Lots of white folks won't admit it, but they're still pissed off an African american was in the White House for eight years.This is their "get back."

And then you have an object these people can point to like George Soros, not admitting guys like Sherman Adelson are hefty donors to conservative and republican groups. But they're that stupid.

Last night, I watched a great special on the rise of white nationalism in the US, and no less than the American military playing a part in this rise. If you can watch this online, I'd urge you to. It was very good.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/20/66948210 ... ican-nazis
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Toby » 21 Nov 2018, 13:01

Anti-Semitism is not far away at all. When people talk about shadowy cabals or paint rich people as misers they are invoking, often unconsciously, anti Semitic tropes.

There are far too many people who put the blame on society's ills on an "other".

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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 13:04

sloopjohnc wrote:In America at least, it's always been there, but Trump has given tacit permission for these folks. His comments on not understanding the term "nationalism" are either an expression of ignorance or a wink and a nudge to these groups.

I think the combination of Trump, the disinterested Republican party, disenfranchised white guys, the Incel movement, etc. are kindling to the flame here. There's no guy like John McCain to dissuade supporters, like he did to a woman at one of his rallies, that Obama was not muslim.

And that's another point. Trump is a swing of the pendulum to Obama's presidency. Lots of white folks won't admit it, but they're still pissed off an African american was in the White House for eight years.This is their "get back."

And then you have an object these people can point to like George Soros, not admitting guys like Sherman Adelson are hefty donors to conservative and republican groups. But they're that stupid.

Last night, I watched a great special on the rise of white nationalism in the US, and no less than the American military playing a part in this rise. If you can watch this online, I'd urge you to. It was very good.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/20/66948210 ... ican-nazis


Looks like we need a definition of 'antisemitism' because yours doesn't appear to be the same as mine...
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 13:05

Toby wrote:Anti-Semitism is not far away at all. When people talk about shadowy cabals or paint rich people as misers they are invoking, often unconsciously, anti Semitic tropes.

There are far too many people who put the blame on society's ills on an "other".


Yes, yes, but why is this increasingly prevalent? I don't remember hearing much about it in the media until the last year or two.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Robert » 21 Nov 2018, 13:07

I agree, anti semitism has been around since counting began but from time to time becomes more prevalent and in your face.

I think it's probably a combination in Europe of growing Nationalism, increasing muslim populations, constant footage of the monstrosities of Israel on the telly and for kids these days WOII being a thing from history books. Not even their parents have lived it through and in some cases not even their grand parents sothat they are not hearing the the stories that we were getting from our parents about the war.

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Re: antisemitism

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Nov 2018, 13:19

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:In America at least, it's always been there, but Trump has given tacit permission for these folks. His comments on not understanding the term "nationalism" are either an expression of ignorance or a wink and a nudge to these groups.

I think the combination of Trump, the disinterested Republican party, disenfranchised white guys, the Incel movement, etc. are kindling to the flame here. There's no guy like John McCain to dissuade supporters, like he did to a woman at one of his rallies, that Obama was not muslim.

And that's another point. Trump is a swing of the pendulum to Obama's presidency. Lots of white folks won't admit it, but they're still pissed off an African american was in the White House for eight years.This is their "get back."

And then you have an object these people can point to like George Soros, not admitting guys like Sherman Adelson are hefty donors to conservative and republican groups. But they're that stupid.

Last night, I watched a great special on the rise of white nationalism in the US, and no less than the American military playing a part in this rise. If you can watch this online, I'd urge you to. It was very good.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/20/66948210 ... ican-nazis


Looks like we need a definition of 'antisemitism' because yours doesn't appear to be the same as mine...


I agree that my post didn't identify antisemitism, specifically, but what I tried to do was tie it into racism in America, generally.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 13:21

Well it never goes away, does it? Anti-Semitism isn’t like other prejudices. It’s more fluid and it’s so culturally ingrained that some people don’t even recognise it as such (hello BCB). And it exists everywhere across the political spectrum.

I think anti-Israeli sentiment has teased some of this shit out into the open, most obviously in this country with Corbyn and Labour but Jews will always be the default Other and with so much conspiratorial crap washing around the internet these days the spectre of anti-Semitism is often there because anti-Semitism is historically intertwined with this nonsense. In some countries around the world anti-Semitism is of course blatant and widespread.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 13:23

sloopjohnc wrote:
DRUGS SNAKE wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:In America at least, it's always been there, but Trump has given tacit permission for these folks. His comments on not understanding the term "nationalism" are either an expression of ignorance or a wink and a nudge to these groups.

I think the combination of Trump, the disinterested Republican party, disenfranchised white guys, the Incel movement, etc. are kindling to the flame here. There's no guy like John McCain to dissuade supporters, like he did to a woman at one of his rallies, that Obama was not muslim.

And that's another point. Trump is a swing of the pendulum to Obama's presidency. Lots of white folks won't admit it, but they're still pissed off an African american was in the White House for eight years.This is their "get back."

And then you have an object these people can point to like George Soros, not admitting guys like Sherman Adelson are hefty donors to conservative and republican groups. But they're that stupid.

Last night, I watched a great special on the rise of white nationalism in the US, and no less than the American military playing a part in this rise. If you can watch this online, I'd urge you to. It was very good.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/20/66948210 ... ican-nazis


Looks like we need a definition of 'antisemitism' because yours doesn't appear to be the same as mine...


I agree that my post didn't identify antisemitism, specifically, but what I tried to do was tie it into racism in America, generally.



Fair enough.

Maybe it's more of a thing in the UK - lots of stuff over the last year about how it's infected the Labour Party, and today this article in The Guardian which surprised me

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... field-trip

Are there increasing numbers of Jewish students in our universities?
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Fonz » 21 Nov 2018, 13:24

I grew up in an era when war films were a staple of Saturday night telly with my mum and dad. When the Nazis were on screen it was always with the implicit and explicit ndetstanding that they weren’t just ‘the bad guys’; they were evil, and another level of ‘bad’ beyond the normal German infantryman etc.

With the passage of time, WWII is considered ‘history’ that you can only learn from a book etc. In my youth, all the older generation had lived through the war, and perhaps had first-hand experience of that evil. They wouldn’t let you dismiss it as ‘something that happened to other people, a long time ago’. Without that direct experience to shape our young people’s perspective, the urgency of fighting antisemitism at its roots is somehow diluted.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 13:25

So its rise is connected with the fact that younger generations aren't as mindful of past evils - particularly Nazism? That would make sense.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Nov 2018, 13:31

There's grades though. The Nazi's persecution is the most extreme example but prejudice against Jews can be so "subtle" it is not even recognised by non-Jews therefore it is not seen as an issue. Especially compared to racism, misogyny, transphobia etc. Jews are often not seen in the same way as other minority groups.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: antisemitism

Postby Stille Baron » 21 Nov 2018, 13:40

My off the cuff take is that it’s coming up now because times are getting fucking weird and (western) people are uncomfortable in the apparently (newly) unstable world they live in and they’re looking for someone to blame to make it all easier to understand and feel better about themselves. These nonsense conspiracy fairytales and bogeymen make it all easier to comprehend. Lots of western white people are finding it hard to deal with the fact that they just got lucky to live in a sixty year window (or whatever) of relative tranquility and prosperity and things no longer seem simple.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 13:54

Yes - that rings true.

I'm still not clear as to why it's such a problem in the UK right now. Especially in academic circles. I might need to look at some stats...
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 13:58

I wonder if the increase in numbers of Muslim students in the UK is partly responsible.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2018, 14:04

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Looks like we need a definition of 'antisemitism' because yours doesn't appear to be the same as mine...


And yours is different again. I know it's become a longer way to write Jew-hating (or blaming, whatever) but it was originally applied to all Arabs and indeed any Levantines, and is as old as the Crusades; describing someone pro-Palestine and anti-Israel as anti-Semite is as daft as ascribing an unease with the latter nation's policies by Jewish people as 'self-hating'. It is possible to be a member of a non-elective group and, as an individual, to fundamentally disagree with the 'group's' actions and supposed beliefs.

As the article mentions, there has been a rise (from a small base) in universities of the use of the swastika to deface and racially incorrect material, not just anti-semitic, presumably by students, and I'm sure this, and a desire to do something click-baity in response, is behind the story. I'm sure what Fonz says is a big factor, but it's also part of a general rise of populism and 'othering' that occurs in major recessions and whenever the right is in charge.

Incidentally, I haven't felt it necessary to mention this before, but here seems a good enough place; both sides of my family originated (as far back as records take me) in the East End and London's dockland, and there are several people in it in the 19th century with Jewish or Dutch/German surnames, so I have 'Jewish blood' (whatever that means), and also (and I'm dreadfully aware of the cliches) have several good (non-observant) Jewish friends, having grown up in, and later moved to, areas in North London with a large Jewish population. I think Israel is a vicious right-wing state (like 99% of all nation-states) and heartily dislike (I don't really do hate - waste of emotional energy) dozens of people (famous ones or ones I know personally) who happen to be Jewish, but would certainly take steps to put right – up to and including extreme verbal violence - someone who called me anti-Jewish, or indeed anti-Semite, to my face.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2018, 14:06

DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Yes - that rings true.

I'm still not clear as to why it's such a problem in the UK right now. Especially in academic circles. I might need to look at some stats...


Because the right-wing newspapers are focusing on it to discredit the Left. There have been Jew-haters all over the right ever since there was a right - that cunt Churchill for a start – but there's never a flap about that.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby harvey k-tel » 21 Nov 2018, 14:08

Fonz wrote:I grew up in an era when war films were a staple of Saturday night telly with my mum and dad. When the Nazis were on screen it was always with the implicit and explicit ndetstanding that they weren’t just ‘the bad guys’; they were evil, and another level of ‘bad’ beyond the normal German infantryman etc.

With the passage of time, WWII is considered ‘history’ that you can only learn from a book etc. In my youth, all the older generation had lived through the war, and perhaps had first-hand experience of that evil. They wouldn’t let you dismiss it as ‘something that happened to other people, a long time ago’. Without that direct experience to shape our young people’s perspective, the urgency of fighting antisemitism at its roots is somehow diluted.


DRUGS SNAKE wrote:So its rise is connected with the fact that younger generations aren't as mindful of past evils - particularly Nazism? That would make sense.


If younger generations can seemingly "get over" the idea that the Nazis were evil fucks, then why can't they get over the idea of some sort of Shylock-based stereotype of Jews?
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 21 Nov 2018, 14:09

Rayge wrote:
DRUGS SNAKE wrote:Looks like we need a definition of 'antisemitism' because yours doesn't appear to be the same as mine...


And yours is different again. I know it's become a longer way to write Jew-hating (or blaming, whatever) but it was originally applied to all Arabs and indeed any Levantines, and is as old as the Crusades; describing someone pro-Palestine and anti-Israel as anti-Semite is as daft as ascribing an unease with the latter nation's policies by Jewish people as 'self-hating'.


Yes but to the vast majority of people, it's used to mean exactly that. As you well know. Original meanings are not relevant and you're showing off again. :)

But thanks for the rest of your post - and the other one.
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Re: antisemitism

Postby Butch Manly » 21 Nov 2018, 14:13

Goat Boy wrote:I think anti-Israeli sentiment has teased some of this shit out into the open, most obviously in this country with Corbyn and Labour


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