Roma in the Czech Rep

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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the masked man
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby the masked man » 08 Oct 2018, 19:33

sloopjohnc wrote:
Toby wrote:The issue is that most people in society live settled lives. They live in one place, they bring up their families there, they interact with their neighbours and contribute to the well-being of that community. We all know how harmonious communities work, generally when there is a relative level of stability.


This may be true of the UK and Europe, but Americans move an average of 11.4 times in their lifetime. According to fivethirtyeight.com, and I'm sure they got it from somewhere else. That stated, Americans move only two times, on average, before the age of 18 and six times after. Again, on average.


It's not even true of the UK. I've had homes in six different locations. People often move for jobs, education, new experiences. To Conservatives like Toby and Theresa May we are 'nowheres' whose wishes must be swept aside to accommodate the parochialism of Brexit. This vision outlined above is a rose-tinted fantasy. There's no such thing as a 'harmonious British community' as this island is built on fear and distrust of anything regarded as 'other'.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Oct 2018, 19:36

the masked man wrote:It's not even true of the UK. I've had homes in six different locations. People often move for jobs, education, new experiences. To Conservatives like Toby and Theresa May we are 'nowheres' whose wishes must be swept aside to accommodate the parochialism of Brexit. This vision outlined above is a rose-tinted fantasy. There's no such thing as a 'harmonious British community' as this island is built on fear and distrust of anything regarded as 'other'.


I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous thing to say.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Toby » 08 Oct 2018, 19:37

Of course people move. I’m not suggesting that people don’t move at all. But you move to fixed properties that are part of fixed communities. You don’t take all of your possessions in a group, trek somewhere in a convoy, live in a place for several weeks and then move on somewhere else. This is a community of people in themselves, who move around, not individuals. It is not that hard to grasp.
Last edited by Toby on 08 Oct 2018, 19:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Toby » 08 Oct 2018, 19:39

Goat Boy wrote:
the masked man wrote:It's not even true of the UK. I've had homes in six different locations. People often move for jobs, education, new experiences. To Conservatives like Toby and Theresa May we are 'nowheres' whose wishes must be swept aside to accommodate the parochialism of Brexit. This vision outlined above is a rose-tinted fantasy. There's no such thing as a 'harmonious British community' as this island is built on fear and distrust of anything regarded as 'other'.


I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous thing to say.


I agree. Why is Britain built on fear and distrust? Do you have any evidence for this? To be honest this just sounds like another rant.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby the masked man » 08 Oct 2018, 19:46

Toby wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
the masked man wrote:It's not even true of the UK. I've had homes in six different locations. People often move for jobs, education, new experiences. To Conservatives like Toby and Theresa May we are 'nowheres' whose wishes must be swept aside to accommodate the parochialism of Brexit. This vision outlined above is a rose-tinted fantasy. There's no such thing as a 'harmonious British community' as this island is built on fear and distrust of anything regarded as 'other'.


I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous thing to say.


I agree. Why is Britain built on fear and distrust? Do you have any evidence for this? To be honest this just sounds like another rant.


Have you read the Daily Mail? It trades in nothing other than fear, and it's the best selling newspaper in Britain. And, I don't know if you've noticed, but Britain voted for Brexit, an idea entirely predicated on the idea that foreigners are bad.

Also, Dougie, I grew in Scotland and suffered constant anti-English racism. The SNP, who encouraged this culture, are now the most popular party in Scotland. So I've experienced this fear of 'the other' at first hand.

I'd turn this question back on you both. Why do you think Britain is harmonious? What evidence do you have? It has a history of civil wars, constant unrest and riots. This is not a country at ease with itself.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Toby » 08 Oct 2018, 19:51

You are making sweeping statements about things there Andrew, particularly about why people voted for Brexit. I’m not going to answer because it is basically off-topic.

With regard to harmony, I’d say that at a town and local community level, most places in Britain are harmonious to a degree. People respect other people’s way of life. They respect property and essentially are not prone to widespread anti-social behaviour. That’s not to say that those things don’t exist, but they are rightfully cracked down on by law and order. You can walk around your local community without fear of antisocial behaviour. People who feel part of a community I would argue live in a relatively harmonious state in an everyday sense.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby $P.Muff$ » 08 Oct 2018, 19:56

Toby wrote:
$P.Muff$ wrote:And there are thousands of people living in and travelling around the country in RVs, though I'm sure most are civilized enough to phone the cricket club before their arrival.


I’m not sure if you have actually contributed anything constructive to this discussion, apart from blindly wading into criticise people’s observations of things you have stated you have no experience of.


If you and your Tory brethren didn't make such ludicrously appalling observations I wouldn't be critizing them. Pretty simple, really.

Are you going to make an attempt to defend the comments I critiqued, or are you going to make the wise decision to, how do you say, 'jog on, cunt'?

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Toby » 08 Oct 2018, 20:00

Can you list these ludicrously appalling observations we’ve made?

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby $P.Muff$ » 08 Oct 2018, 20:11

They've been quoted a couple pages back. I'm not doing your leg work.

It's funny how you feel you have a right to answers from me, yet there is still no response from you regarding the query "what is a homogenous society" or any of the follow up posts disagreeing with your assertions.

But you are the guy who tried to tell BCB about poverty in Appalachia because you read 'Hillbilly Elegy', so I don't expect much from you regardless.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Reporters

Postby the masked man » 08 Oct 2018, 20:12

It’s probably not a good idea to lecture someone who had his leg broken after being violently mugged (within a few hundred metres of his home) on how I shouldn’t be afraid of anti-social behaviour. And I’ve seen plenty of examples to contradict your complacent assertions including street fights, bricks thrown through windows, racist assaults and the like. Read some J G Ballard. He had excellent insights into what lay behind the British mask of civility.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Deebank » 08 Oct 2018, 20:19

HEN wrote:Roma cause trouble wherever they go.


I don’t know if this is your usual trolling or you actually believe this but insert any other minority - one that was also treated as subhuman by the nazis perhaps- into this sentence, ‘jews’ for example....

It is at best an ignorant and crass generalisation and at worst just flat out racist.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Reporters

Postby Toby » 08 Oct 2018, 20:21

the masked man wrote:It’s probably not a good idea to lecture someone who had his leg broken after being violently mugged (within a few hundred metres of his home) on how I shouldn’t be afraid of anti-social behaviour. And I’ve seen plenty of examples to contradict your complacent assertions including street fights, bricks thrown through windows, racist assaults and the like. Read some J G Ballard. He had excellent insights into what lay behind the British mask of civility.


I understand that. But would you say that activity is observed throughout Britain everywhere? I mean, do we live in crime-riddled towns where people fear for their safety on a daily basis? No one is suggesting that we all live in leafy villages where the sound of leather on willow is heard continuously. But to suggest that we all live in gloomy towns where people avoid going out at night is equally not true.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Reporters

Postby Deebank » 08 Oct 2018, 20:27

Toby wrote:
the masked man wrote:It’s probably not a good idea to lecture someone who had his leg broken after being violently mugged (within a few hundred metres of his home) on how I shouldn’t be afraid of anti-social behaviour. And I’ve seen plenty of examples to contradict your complacent assertions including street fights, bricks thrown through windows, racist assaults and the like. Read some J G Ballard. He had excellent insights into what lay behind the British mask of civility.


I understand that. But would you say that activity is observed throughout Britain everywhere? I mean, do we live in crime-riddled towns where people fear for their safety on a daily basis? No one is suggesting that we all live in leafy villages where the sound of leather on willow is heard continuously. But to suggest that we all live in gloomy towns where people avoid going out at night is equally not true.


But you seem to be arguing that Roma are a challenge or threat to homogeneity somehow. I would argue that there is no such thing to be challenged.

As a country we already have a rich and hugely varied culture. People live in all sorts of weird and different ways. Perhaps you ought to get out into rural west wales or Cornwall a bit :lol:

I would also add that gypsies and their quasi nomadic lifestyles have been part of that rich mix for centuries.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 08 Oct 2018, 20:32

Darkness_Fish wrote:This is a big fucking mess of absolute shit from the off.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Reporters

Postby Toby » 08 Oct 2018, 20:40

Deebank wrote:
Toby wrote:
the masked man wrote:It’s probably not a good idea to lecture someone who had his leg broken after being violently mugged (within a few hundred metres of his home) on how I shouldn’t be afraid of anti-social behaviour. And I’ve seen plenty of examples to contradict your complacent assertions including street fights, bricks thrown through windows, racist assaults and the like. Read some J G Ballard. He had excellent insights into what lay behind the British mask of civility.


I understand that. But would you say that activity is observed throughout Britain everywhere? I mean, do we live in crime-riddled towns where people fear for their safety on a daily basis? No one is suggesting that we all live in leafy villages where the sound of leather on willow is heard continuously. But to suggest that we all live in gloomy towns where people avoid going out at night is equally not true.


But you seem to be arguing that Roma are a challenge or threat to homogeneity somehow. I would argue that there is no such thing to be challenged.

As a country we already have a rich and hugely varied culture. People live in all sorts of weird and different ways. Perhaps you ought to get out into rural west wales or Cornwall a bit :lol:

I would also add that gypsies and their quasi nomadic lifestyles have been part of that rich mix for centuries.



I’d agree that in the Uk travellers are not an “issue” per se. But to return to the OP, there are plenty of people in Czech who see it somewhat differently. Perhaps in countries where economic issues are more pressing, the notion of societies working together is more important.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby $P.Muff$ » 08 Oct 2018, 21:34

Replace countries with households, and have a look in the fucking mirror.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby The Modernist » 08 Oct 2018, 21:48

Toby wrote:The issue is that most people in society live settled lives. They live in one place, they bring up their families there, they interact with their neighbours and contribute to the well-being of that community. We all know how harmonious communities work, generally when there is a relative level of stability.

That is a way of life that virtually everyone in the West recognises and observes. It is what we do.

If communities don’t observe that, in that they move regularly and do not build up ties and relationships with their neighbours, then there inevitably is an element of chaos, of unpredictability and uncertainty that affects both parties. For the travelling community, it can mean outright hostility, sometimes totally undeserved, because of perceived reputation and the like. This is reflected in the settled community, who often have to deal with unexpected arrivals who decide that a place is their home for the time being. Most of the time there is no dialogue beforehand about arriving etc.

We had travellers on the cricket club ground a few months ago. They were fine, very tidy etc and only stayed for about 4 days, but it irked a number of people because they just turned up. There was no advance warning etc. Unfortunately for people who live in the countryside, it is this sort of thing that often angers people.


What about traveller communites that do live in one place and have done for a long time?

I nearly missed the Champions League semi-final because all the local pubs in my area were shut. It was because the pikies were all kicking off because of this..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/03/residents-block-hither-green-street-ahead-henry-vincents-funeral/

I managed to persuade my local to let me in, they had all the lights out and were pretending it was a private party.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Oct 2018, 22:26

the masked man wrote:Have you read the Daily Mail? It trades in nothing other than fear, and it's the best selling newspaper in Britain. And, I don't know if you've noticed, but Britain voted for Brexit, an idea entirely predicated on the idea that foreigners are bad.


Far be it from me to defend the Daily Mail but it's a narrow view of its appeal I think. The notion that Brexit is entirely predicated on xenophobia is simply not true. You're just repeating some simple minded rote like interpretation of a complex situation in an attempt to paint Britain with your usual unflattering colours.

Also, Dougie, I grew in Scotland and suffered constant anti-English racism. The SNP, who encouraged this culture, are now the most popular party in Scotland. So I've experienced this fear of 'the other' at first hand.


Anti-English sentiment exists of course but kids will pick on anybody who is superficially different as well and any excuse will do. One of my best mates was born in England and moved to Fife as a kid and suffered bullying like you did so I'm dismissive of it at all but I also know English people like my girlfriend and several mates who have settled in Scotland as adults and experienced no problems at all. I also understand that Edinburgh is Edinburgh and maybe different to other parts of Scotland but still. I am no fan of the SNP but I don't believe they encourage anti-English feeling/culture, anti-Westminster, yes and you could construe that as one and the same thing but they aren't. They are happy to exploit simple minded nationalism though which, undoubtedly, contains elements of this - how can it not? - but they have also been vocal in condemning bigotry and prejudice and my experience of SNP supporters (I have several as mates) is that they are generally left leaning "progressive" types.

I'd turn this question back on you both. Why do you think Britain is harmonious? What evidence do you have? It has a history of civil wars, constant unrest and riots. This is not a country at ease with itself.


Well it's all relative. What's this constant unrest and riots you speak of? Any country as multi-cultural as modern Britain will have issues of course, how can it not. Look at America or Germany or other parts of Europe such as Austria or Italy and I would argue that we do live in relative harmony and using the popularity of the far right as a barometer I think we clearly have less problems than some. I actually believe that despite our issues Britain has actually handled multi-culturalism better than most and that many communities have successfully integrated and are now firmly part of the rich tapestry of modern Britain. Yes we still have some way to go of course as this is a constant process but still....

The world is going through a stupid period and Britain is not immune from this and I find the Scottish independence movement understandable but also depressing - I voted No by the way and would do the same again - but, like I said, the world is going through a tumultuous period of change and disorder and that's the way things are. At moments like this I think it's important to have some perspective too.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Oct 2018, 22:26

HEN wrote:


:lol:

Totes.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby yomptepi » 08 Oct 2018, 23:49

The Modernist wrote:What about traveller communites that do live in one place and have done for a long time?

I nearly missed the Champions League semi-final because all the local pubs in my area were shut. It was because the pikies were all kicking off because of this..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/03/residents-block-hither-green-street-ahead-henry-vincents-funeral/

I managed to persuade my local to let me in, they had all the lights out and were pretending it was a private party.


How unusually illiberal of you G.

I am shocked.
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