Roma in the Czech Rep

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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SUMPTUOUS SI
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby SUMPTUOUS SI » 10 Oct 2018, 14:04

The Modernist wrote:
HEN wrote:Such dribbling half-baked crap.

I keep hearing this nonsense about Tory policy being to "target" the homeless, and that there's a "deliberate" plan to keep these numbers high.

I mean, I'd never vote Conservative, I dislike May (and think her party are making a real fucking mess of everything) - but why do the Left keep pushing these preposterous allegations? Fuck knows there's enough there that's valid to attack!


I like you a lot John, but sometimes your naivety on such matters staggers me.


It's nothing to do with naivety (or the lack of it) - I'm pointing out what I hear and read, time and time again, from so-called socialists who portray the Tories as evil bastards whose only purpose on earth is to line their own pockets and fuck everyone else over. THAT'S what's naive.


The Modernist wrote:No one is saying the Tories are so evil that they enjoy watching people die on the streets.


You're not watching the same TV programmes as I am, clearly!
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Toby » 10 Oct 2018, 14:05

The Modernist wrote:
HEN wrote:Such dribbling half-baked crap.

I keep hearing this nonsense about Tory policy being to "target" the homeless, and that there's a "deliberate" plan to keep these numbers high.

I mean, I'd never vote Conservative, I dislike May (and think her party are making a real fucking mess of everything) - but why do the Left keep pushing these preposterous allegations? Fuck knows there's enough there that's valid to attack!


I like you a lot John, but sometimes your naivety on such matters staggers me.
No one is saying the Tories are so evil that they enjoy watching people die on the streets. But their housing policy ( with the exception of the consensual policies of the McMillan Government) has always favoured the privatisation and profitisation, almost always at the cost of care and provision, of housing and giving greater powers to landlords and wealthy developers. There is a long and complex history to this, but the upshot of it is a housing market that it is no longer affordable to many, whether we are talking renting or buying, and people living in slum conditions. We are now at the point of such crisis that even many Tories ( at least the few that don't have substantial property investment) see something must be done. And yes the effect of such policies has been homelessness among other things.



I think that's a bit myopic. The fact is that the availability of new housing is the ultimate root and cause of the inflated market. No government has been able to hit the 350K a year target for new houses since the late 60's and in this respect it's a problem shared by both Labour and Tories. One of the core dogmas of Tory philosophy is property - to own your own home - and I think in many regards, what with the cack-handed right to buy policy, there has been a drive to get people on the housing market, not appreciating that of course it created as many problems as it solved - showing that intervention by the state is often perilous. The last major drive in building was under Thatcher.

Image

The Green Belt act - which prevents a considerable number of houses being built - was a Labour policy. But would you renege on the destruction of our countryside? Like all of these things, they are extremely complex problems.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby The Modernist » 10 Oct 2018, 14:11

Toby you know as well as I do, there was a concerted policy to remove housing provision, and the responsibility for it, from the state and entirely to the private market. Local authorities were neutered so effectively that not only could new homes not be built, but they were forced to sell off or place under the control of private housing associations, the ones they did have. The results of this have been disastrous. But it was a very deliberate policy and let's be honest about that.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Toby » 10 Oct 2018, 14:14

Lots of people benefitted from it though (including a whole swathe of 50-something Labour voters who bought properties in Zone 2 back in the 80s that are now worth 7 figures). I agree that the sale of council housing stock was without doubt problematic. The history of this particular decision and its ramifications has yet to be written, although there was a good book about housing written a couple of years ago.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby The Modernist » 10 Oct 2018, 14:33

It was wrong Toby, not just problematic. I don't object to people buying their own council homes ( ironically it was an idea that was very close to being adopted by the Callaghan government) by the way, but it was done as a way of destroying local authority provision..that was what was so wrong about it.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Deebank » 10 Oct 2018, 14:51

The money from selling off council houses should have been ring-fenced for new council housing but it wasn't.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Oct 2018, 15:25

Toby wrote:Lots of people benefitted from it though (including a whole swathe of 50-something Labour voters who bought properties in Zone 2 back in the 80s that are now worth 7 figures). I agree that the sale of council housing stock was without doubt problematic. The history of this particular decision and its ramifications has yet to be written, although there was a good book about housing written a couple of years ago.



Making people 'home owners' (read " Heavily in debt") was always a key strategy of the Conservatives - to force workers to accept eroded pay & conditions because they could no longer afford to strike, allowing businesses to become ever more profitable. I think that part of it has certainly been written - and will be written with even more emphasis once Brexit goes through and some of the key Rights Bills are disabled under future Governments.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Robert » 10 Oct 2018, 15:31

Toby wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
HEN wrote:Such dribbling half-baked crap.

I keep hearing this nonsense about Tory policy being to "target" the homeless, and that there's a "deliberate" plan to keep these numbers high.

I mean, I'd never vote Conservative, I dislike May (and think her party are making a real fucking mess of everything) - but why do the Left keep pushing these preposterous allegations? Fuck knows there's enough there that's valid to attack!


I like you a lot John, but sometimes your naivety on such matters staggers me.
No one is saying the Tories are so evil that they enjoy watching people die on the streets. But their housing policy ( with the exception of the consensual policies of the McMillan Government) has always favoured the privatisation and profitisation, almost always at the cost of care and provision, of housing and giving greater powers to landlords and wealthy developers. There is a long and complex history to this, but the upshot of it is a housing market that it is no longer affordable to many, whether we are talking renting or buying, and people living in slum conditions. We are now at the point of such crisis that even many Tories ( at least the few that don't have substantial property investment) see something must be done. And yes the effect of such policies has been homelessness among other things.



I think that's a bit myopic. The fact is that the availability of new housing is the ultimate root and cause of the inflated market. No government has been able to hit the 350K a year target for new houses since the late 60's and in this respect it's a problem shared by both Labour and Tories. One of the core dogmas of Tory philosophy is property - to own your own home - and I think in many regards, what with the cack-handed right to buy policy, there has been a drive to get people on the housing market, not appreciating that of course it created as many problems as it solved - showing that intervention by the state is often perilous. The last major drive in building was under Thatcher.

Image

The Green Belt act - which prevents a considerable number of houses being built - was a Labour policy. But would you renege on the destruction of our countryside? Like all of these things, they are extremely complex problems.



Just imagine the Pikies wanted to integrate and live in houses!!

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Pansy Puff » 10 Oct 2018, 18:06

Toby wrote:The last major drive in building was under Thatcher.

Image

.

Do you mean that increase from about 1982 to 1988? I guess it was a drive (major?) but relative to what came before it's still a bit paltry.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Butch Manly » 10 Oct 2018, 20:29

Toby wrote:I agree that the sale of council housing stock was without doubt problematic.


Problematic? Dogmatic, wrongheaded and downright socially catastrophic, more like.

The history of this particular decision and its ramifications has yet to be written, although there was a good book about housing written a couple of years ago.


Does it really have to be written in a history book for you before you fully accept it? I see it written on the streets that I work in. I see it written in the faces of the itinerant children who pass though my borough, on a heartbreaking downward spiral of unrealised potential as benefit-capping and a woeful lack of social housing cut deep into community after community.

Still, mustn't grumble.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Butch Manly » 10 Oct 2018, 20:29

And at least we got a good book out of it.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Goat Boy » 10 Oct 2018, 22:53

Book sounds good! What’s it called?
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby sloopjohnc » 10 Oct 2018, 23:18

Butch Manly wrote:Does it really have to be written in a history book for you before you fully accept it? I see it written on the streets that I work in. I see it written in the faces of the itinerant children who pass though my borough, on a heartbreaking downward spiral of unrealised potential as benefit-capping and a woeful lack of social housing cut deep into community after community.

Still, mustn't grumble.


Sounds like a Chuck Dickens op-ed.

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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Pansy Puff » 10 Oct 2018, 23:27

HEN wrote:Such dribbling half-baked crap.

I keep hearing this nonsense about Tory policy being to "target" the homeless, and that there's a "deliberate" plan to keep these numbers high.

I mean, I'd never vote Conservative, I dislike May (and think her party are making a real fucking mess of everything) - but why do the Left keep pushing these preposterous allegations? Fuck knows there's enough there that's valid to attack!

Do you mean stuff like this:

The Tories do not care. They have never and will never care about the sanctity of human life. Their only aim is to erase the number of Just About Managing families in order to meet targets. When policies created with the aim to ensure positive outcomes for families result in the death of family members, questions must be asked. Why is this not a national scandal? How is it that the Tories are being allowed to get away with the killing and cleansing of vulnerable citizens through the creation of policies which kill? That is what it is, socio-economic manslaughter.

If they cared, surely they would stop and look into this but oh no, the lust of vampires is mightier than life itself.

1. Universal Credit and poverty. Look no further: https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/20 ... l-benefit/

2. Benefit sanctions and suicide: https://evolvepolitics.com/these-are-th ... ty-benefit

3. 50 percent of women attempt following fit for work assessments: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 77306.html

4. Death on Benefits to ESA claimants: https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/10/09/ ... have-died/

5. The Vampire's apprentice has been released to devour the oxygen supply of benefit claimants: https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/20 ... k-for-ids/

6. The Tories have the blood of UK citizens on their hands indeed: https://welfareweekly.com/tories-will-h ... al-credit/

7. Oh, just a few more deaths to consider: https://welfareweekly.com/hundreds-die- ... find-work/

But it will be okay. Just keep rewarding the henchmen and women for a targeted killing spree and it will just continue: https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/10/08/ ... -disgrace/

And after they recieve thier reward, appoint a 'minister of suicide' to examine the stare of suicide in the nation. What fuckwit Ted and perverse thinking. Always need to be seen to be doing something but it is always the wrong thing. Address the sham of benefits, decent wage, homes to live address the damaged infrastructure of society if you have any intention of addressing mental health concerns. Bastards.

And there is much, much more than this. How dare they. How the hell dare they erase human life at a whim. It is time to make a stand and erase this government. How dare they share the same oxygen supply.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby yomptepi » 11 Oct 2018, 00:21

A lot of links to the Canary there K. Not the most reliable source of information you know. They do just make stuff up. But I am sure you don't worry about little things like that...
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Pansy Puff » 11 Oct 2018, 06:46

yomptepi wrote:A lot of links to the Canary there K. Not the most reliable source of information you know. They do just make stuff up. But I am sure you don't worry about little things like that...

Huh?
I posted it as an example of what JC was talking about.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Oct 2018, 18:56

Goat Boy wrote:Book sounds good! What’s it called?


"Municipal Dreams," I'm assuming.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Butch Manly » 14 Oct 2018, 23:08

The Modernist wrote:Of course, but it's not just ideological. Greed lies at the heart of it.


It's the eternal battle between the ruling class who are in power and want to feather their beds, and the downtrodden who know they are exploited and want some form of equality.

Ultimately, it's as simple as that.
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby Jimbo » 15 Oct 2018, 03:51

Roma is-a in Italia. Now-a and-a forever!
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Re: Roma in the Czech Rep

Postby yomptepi » 15 Oct 2018, 13:33

Butch Manly wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Of course, but it's not just ideological. Greed lies at the heart of it.


It's the eternal battle between the ruling class who are in power and want to feather their beds, and the downtrodden who know they are exploited and want some form of equality.

Ultimately, it's as simple as that.


I don't think it has anything to do with that. It is to do with cultural identity, and being able to do as you please. There are plenty of extremely wealthy travelers who still choose to live in trailers away from the world. We are all just "Gorgers" to them. "gorger on the other hand is simply a term for non romanies, derived as bill points out from a word meaning 'civilian' its not a term of offense, and unlike gyppo and pikey is a proper word derived from one of the oldest and purest languages in the world." They see us as aliens.
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