Serena Williams

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Serena Williams

Postby Snarfyguy » 10 Sep 2018, 01:05

What rage costs a woman

https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/serena-w ... exism.html

Wow, what a story! Any thoughts?
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Copehead » 10 Sep 2018, 01:09

Snarfyguy wrote:What rage costs a woman

https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/serena-w ... exism.html

Wow, what a story! Any thoughts?


Seems a bit odd seeing as her opponent was female and not white too. Perhaps Ramos has very specific issues.
Or perhaps he is just a stickler for the rules.
As a rugby player I was taught the ref is always right even when he is a blind fuckwit and there is nothing you can do about that.
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Snarfyguy » 10 Sep 2018, 01:18

Copehead wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:What rage costs a woman

https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/serena-w ... exism.html

Wow, what a story! Any thoughts?


Seems a bit odd seeing as her opponent was female and not white too. Perhaps Ramos has very specific issues.
Or perhaps he is just a stickler for the rules.
As a rugby player I was taught the ref is always right even when he is a blind fuckwit and there is nothing you can do about that.

I guess the takeaway is supposed to be that the ruling wasn't FOR her opponent, but rather AGAINST Williams.

It would be interesting, and I suppose someone will crunch the numbers shortly, to know if there's any statistical bias in this particular ref's history of foul-calling.

But on an institutional level, it seems the likes of McEnroe can all but take a dump on the court, while a modest infraction costs a female person of color a formal rebuke. The fact that the outcome of the match seems to not have really even been in contention adds an additional interesting dimension to the story.
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby yomptepi » 10 Sep 2018, 01:21

Snarfyguy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:What rage costs a woman

https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/serena-w ... exism.html

Wow, what a story! Any thoughts?


Seems a bit odd seeing as her opponent was female and not white too. Perhaps Ramos has very specific issues.
Or perhaps he is just a stickler for the rules.
As a rugby player I was taught the ref is always right even when he is a blind fuckwit and there is nothing you can do about that.

I guess the takeaway is supposed to be that the ruling wasn't FOR her opponent, but rather AGAINST Williams.

It would be interesting, and I suppose someone will crunch the numbers shortly, to know if there's any statistical bias in this particular ref's history of foul-calling.

But on an institutional level, it seems the likes of McEnroe can all but take a dump on the court, while a modest infraction costs a female person of color a formal rebuke. The fact that the outcome of the match seems to not have really even been in contention adds an additional interesting dimension to the story.


I think you have it there. It was the fact that he reprimanded her so hard and so often, wheras he would never treat a male player in the same way. I think she had every right to be angry.
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Copehead » 10 Sep 2018, 01:27

yomptepi wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Seems a bit odd seeing as her opponent was female and not white too. Perhaps Ramos has very specific issues.
Or perhaps he is just a stickler for the rules.
As a rugby player I was taught the ref is always right even when he is a blind fuckwit and there is nothing you can do about that.

I guess the takeaway is supposed to be that the ruling wasn't FOR her opponent, but rather AGAINST Williams.

It would be interesting, and I suppose someone will crunch the numbers shortly, to know if there's any statistical bias in this particular ref's history of foul-calling.

But on an institutional level, it seems the likes of McEnroe can all but take a dump on the court, while a modest infraction costs a female person of color a formal rebuke. The fact that the outcome of the match seems to not have really even been in contention adds an additional interesting dimension to the story.


I think you have it there. It was the fact that he reprimanded her so hard and so often, wheras he would never treat a male player in the same way. I think she had every right to be angry.


He could be a twat, he could be a racist twat.
We can agree that he was a twat
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Goat Boy » 10 Sep 2018, 09:25

yomptepi wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Seems a bit odd seeing as her opponent was female and not white too. Perhaps Ramos has very specific issues.
Or perhaps he is just a stickler for the rules.
As a rugby player I was taught the ref is always right even when he is a blind fuckwit and there is nothing you can do about that.

I guess the takeaway is supposed to be that the ruling wasn't FOR her opponent, but rather AGAINST Williams.

It would be interesting, and I suppose someone will crunch the numbers shortly, to know if there's any statistical bias in this particular ref's history of foul-calling.

But on an institutional level, it seems the likes of McEnroe can all but take a dump on the court, while a modest infraction costs a female person of color a formal rebuke. The fact that the outcome of the match seems to not have really even been in contention adds an additional interesting dimension to the story.


I think you have it there. It was the fact that he reprimanded her so hard and so often, wheras he would never treat a male player in the same way. I think she had every right to be angry.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/umpire-was-not-sexist-serena-williams-broke-the-rules-8stzhw9jp
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Rayge » 10 Sep 2018, 09:56

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby caramba » 10 Sep 2018, 10:17

Hasn't SW's coach now come out and admitted that he did in fact coach her but claimed she hadn't seen him?
Last edited by caramba on 10 Sep 2018, 10:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby DRUGS SNAKE » 10 Sep 2018, 10:20

Isn't that what coaches do?*



*when they don't drive Copehead and Deebank to toy train exhibitions
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby The Modernist » 10 Sep 2018, 10:21

Snarfyguy wrote:

But on an institutional level, it seems the likes of McEnroe can all but take a dump on the court, while a modest infraction costs a female person of color a formal rebuke.


[/quote]

I'm not sure it is relevant to bring in McEnroe as that was a long time ago and a lot has changed since then, like the use of technology to decide whether the ball is out ( which was what the majority of his conflicts were about). I'm also not sure why you'd make a point of William's race? Why might that be a factor?
It seems more of a case to me of an over-officious referee (or umpire to use the correct terminology) who was out of his depth in a high profile, high pressure match.

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Sep 2018, 10:50

caramba wrote:Hasn't SW's coach now come out and admitted that he did in fact coach her but claimed she hadn't seen him?


There is an interesting point there though (or two) :

a) The coach made the gesture, not the player. She can't actually stop him coaching her. Surely the penalty should be for the coach, not the player?
b) Coaching is allowed in all ladies tournaments besides Grand Slams... maybe someone can explain the logic of that to me, because I completely fail to understand it.
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby PENK » 10 Sep 2018, 10:55

Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby The Modernist » 10 Sep 2018, 11:02



As I suspected the umpire has form for being over-officious and clashing with players. I think any sports fan will recognise his type.

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby caramba » 10 Sep 2018, 11:25


I'm also not sure why you'd make a point of William's race? Why might that be a factor?



With a name like Carlos Ramos, he might have first-hand experience of racism himself

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Rayge » 10 Sep 2018, 12:52

PENK wrote:
Rayge wrote:I'll see your paywalled Murdoch rag and raise a free-access Digger-free article

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... rlos-ramos


Did you mean to post this one? Seems more explicitly relevant:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/09/carlos-ramos-serena-williams-tennis-umpire-us-open?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


No, I was trying to make the point that it wasn't about the breaking of the rules, but the strict interpretation of those rules (leaving aside the fact that the coaching rule in tennis is a nonsense, anyway) and lack of management on the part of the umpire. The first, rather dodgy, code violation effectively created the next two by filling SW with a sense of injustice. Martinet vs diva, never likely to end well.
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Snarfyguy » 10 Sep 2018, 15:13

The Modernist wrote:I'm not sure it is relevant to bring in McEnroe as that was a long time ago and a lot has changed since then, like the use of technology to decide whether the ball is out ( which was what the majority of his conflicts were about). I'm also not sure why you'd make a point of William's race? Why might that be a factor?
It seems more of a case to me of an over-officious referee (or umpire to use the correct terminology) who was out of his depth in a high profile, high pressure match.

1. I'm not sure that the reasons behind players' on-court outbursts are the point here. If line calls are made by computer now, then great, but it seems there may some kind of institutional bias with respect to how, or indeed whether, certain infractions are punished.

2. I only bring up her race because depending on where you read the story, that is the story.

I refer you to the article I quoted in the OP.

But it’s not simply that those who are angry at the kinds of things Serena Williams is angry about are “too inhibited” to disclose their fury. It’s also that they are told all the time — like when they watch a tennis final — that if they do permit themselves to rage, even if that rage pales in comparison to the rage of their male peers, their white predecessors, that they will face reprimand. Women are made to understand, all the time, how their reasonable expression of vexation might cost them the game. Women’s challenge to male authority, and especially black women’s challenge to authority, is automatically understood as a threat, a form of defiance that must be quashed.


If this seems hysterical to you, allow me to remind you that you are the oppressor. ;)

https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/serena-w ... exism.html
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby The Modernist » 10 Sep 2018, 15:22

I had a quick look at the article, it seemed to be projecting a lot of other stuff onto it and rather ignored the germane point that this umpire has a history of clashing with top players.

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Re: Serena Williams

Postby never/ever » 10 Sep 2018, 15:58

He pinged Venus for the same thing a few years back.

I don't see any problem with umpires punishing players for their coaches obviously coaching from the box: it is verboten according to WTA-regulations during Slams. Williams ' coach was dumb enough to give himself up live on TV making Serena look like a liar during the first confrontation. To say that the problem lies with the ref goes twofold: first off, if players know he is a stickler for the rules, don't try it. And to claim that being pinged shouldn't happen because other referees and umpires don't apply that rule is covering one mistake to with another: Ramos was right because, as he stated, the coaching was obvious.

The one thing I do give Serena is that being docked a full game after three code violations is very harsh. But she has form and knows you can't win these arguments and it only led her from bad to worse. In the process she ruined Naomi Osaka's glorious moment and that was the worst part of it.
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby sloopjohnc » 10 Sep 2018, 16:55

Mary Carillo's viewpoint this morning. She convinced me. I watched the match too.

http://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/wa ... 6?v=railb&
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Re: Serena Williams

Postby Qube » 11 Sep 2018, 14:50

sloopjohnc wrote:Mary Carillo's viewpoint this morning. She convinced me. I watched the match too.

http://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/wa ... 6?v=railb&


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