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Rayge
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Rayge » 31 Aug 2018, 18:10

what is 'GLEDE' e . wrote:Presiding over a disintegrating Empire while trying to rebuild the country was an near-impossible task. It was also politically contradictory (colonialism vs socialism?)


Not to mention having to maintain rationing because the Americans were glad to see the UK rot and weren't comfortable with ''commies" in charge
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Eddie Shah environment » 31 Aug 2018, 18:14

That whole immediate post-War period fascinates me. Weren't the US behind 'Uncle Joe' for a while?
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Butch Manly » 31 Aug 2018, 18:19

Rayge wrote:
Toby wrote:The Attlee government was so impressive that they lost the next election to a 76 year old Churchill.

No they didn't. They got a significantly reduced majority but a higher popular vote than in 1945.


Biggest popular vote for a single party in a general election in fact- robbed by the vagueries of the voting system . They also won the election in 1950.
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby The Modernist » 31 Aug 2018, 18:24

Image

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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Toby » 31 Aug 2018, 18:24

There is no perfect system and I'm sure no one would care if Labour won the election even if the Tories got more votes.

The point is that for all the achievements of the Attlee government and how it is talked about in hindsight, things were not so clear cut at the time.

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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Rayge » 31 Aug 2018, 18:26

Butch Manly wrote:
Rayge wrote:
Toby wrote:The Attlee government was so impressive that they lost the next election to a 76 year old Churchill.

No they didn't. They got a significantly reduced majority but a higher popular vote than in 1945.


Biggest popular vote for a single party in a general election in fact- robbed by the vagueries of the voting system . They also won the election in 1950.


The 1950 election is the one I'm talking about. Toby said they lost it, but the senile racist warmonger didn't get back into power until 1951
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Rayge » 31 Aug 2018, 18:26

The Modernist wrote:Image


Thankyou
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Copehead » 31 Aug 2018, 18:39

Rayge wrote:
Toby wrote:The Attlee government was so impressive that they lost the next election to a 76 year old Churchill.

No they didn't. They got a significantly reduced majority but a higher popular vote than in 1945.


And the election after that they lost to a Conservative Party economically well to the left of the Modern Labour Party despite polling more votes than them.


You'd think an historian would know stuff like that, or at least check up on it before posting :)
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Copehead » 31 Aug 2018, 18:41

Toby wrote:There is no perfect system and I'm sure no one would care if Labour won the election even if the Tories got more votes.

The point is that for all the achievements of the Attlee government and how it is talked about in hindsight, things were not so clear cut at the time.


Things were incredibly clear cut, the Tory Party had to pledge to build more council homes than Labour and keep to all their post-war socialist programs to win an election and even then they only won through the vagaries of FPTP.
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Copehead » 31 Aug 2018, 18:43

Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Image


Thankyou


More impressive man than Jeremy Corbyn but oddly turning out to be a less impressive politician
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Toby » 31 Aug 2018, 18:45

True. Supermac's election promises were pretty left-wing.

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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Deebank » 31 Aug 2018, 18:47

Butch Manly wrote:And Shirley Williams was one of the gang of four. Splitter.


I’d argue Woy Jenkins was a more significant Labour splitter. The permissive society and all that.
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby yomptepi » 31 Aug 2018, 20:24

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:My goodness me you have to go a long way back to find one, don't you?


Gordon Brown will one day be up there with them for rallying the Western world when the banking system collapsed and presiding over the longest period of sustained economic growth in modern British history.

.


The only thing he will be remembered for is calling that lady a bigoted woman.

And destroying our economy over the ten years you say he presided over growth. What he presided over was debt. The only economics Labour understand.
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Pansy Puff » 31 Aug 2018, 20:28

Duffy is still cross that Brown thought she had sworn at him when she asked him about eastern European immigrants in Rochdale, insisting she had asked the then prime minister: “Where are they flocking from?” rather than “Where are they fucking from?”
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Copehead » 31 Aug 2018, 22:24

Deebank wrote:
Butch Manly wrote:And Shirley Williams was one of the gang of four. Splitter.


I’d argue Woy Jenkins was a more significant Labour splitter. The permissive society and all that.


Definitely, him and Owen were the big hitters, but Woy was a real big beast and a real loss to Labour and their credibility.

Those two had held major offices of state and Woy had been a potential leader, possibly Owen too, Williams and the other one ( Rodgers? ) not so much.

But at least Coan is mindful of including women in his list which proves that things are changing!
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Copehead » 31 Aug 2018, 22:30

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:My goodness me you have to go a long way back to find one, don't you?


Gordon Brown will one day be up there with them for rallying the Western world when the banking system collapsed and presiding over the longest period of sustained economic growth in modern British history.

.


The only thing he will be remembered for is calling that lady a bigoted woman.

And destroying our economy over the ten years you say he presided over growth. What he presided over was debt. The only economics Labour understand.


I think you find that all governments preside over debt, but Labour historically have a lower debt and smaller deficit than the Tories.

Image

Not that you'll understand that of course, get Toby to explain it to you.



The Tory's fiscal credibility is a myth that only dullards believe, hence the above.

Tories borrow more, pay back less and the services, that miraculously improve when Labour are in power, get worse as well.

Almost as if they are incompetent chancers or people solely interested in extracting money from the economy to feed out to the already super rich, who do remarkably well when Tories are in power for some reason.
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Butch Manly » 31 Aug 2018, 22:37

Toby wrote:There is no perfect system and I'm sure no one would care if Labour won the election even if the Tories got more votes.

The point is that for all the achievements of the Attlee government and how it is talked about in hindsight, things were not so clear cut at the time.


I must admit, I do read all your posts in a Jacob Rees-Mogg voice these days. You literally have no insight to offer whatsoever. It's ALL " I am happy in my nice middle-class existence and I quite enjoy sneering at other people who think that this country could and should be better for them."
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Butch Manly » 31 Aug 2018, 22:41

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:My goodness me you have to go a long way back to find one, don't you?


Gordon Brown will one day be up there with them for rallying the Western world when the banking system collapsed and presiding over the longest period of sustained economic growth in modern British history.

.


The only thing he will be remembered for is calling that lady a bigoted woman.

And destroying our economy over the ten years you say he presided over growth. What he presided over was debt. The only economics Labour understand.


Debt is a neoliberal cornerstone, Michael, as you well know.
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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby Toby » 31 Aug 2018, 23:01

Butch Manly wrote:
Toby wrote:There is no perfect system and I'm sure no one would care if Labour won the election even if the Tories got more votes.

The point is that for all the achievements of the Attlee government and how it is talked about in hindsight, things were not so clear cut at the time.


I must admit, I do read all your posts in a Jacob Rees-Mogg voice these days. You literally have no insight to offer whatsoever. It's ALL " I am happy in my nice middle-class existence and I quite enjoy sneering at other people who think that this country could and should be better for them."


And I read all yours in a Citizen Smith "FREE THE OPPRESSED OF TOOTING" voice.

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Re: impressive Labour Party figures of the past

Postby yomptepi » 31 Aug 2018, 23:19

Copehead wrote:

Image
The Tory's fiscal credibility is a myth that only dullards believe, hence the above.



All that graph shows is how debt under Labour grew faster and faster until the economy collapsed. The fact that the tories have failed to settle the economic problems and make the economy grow again is a different discussion. The facts are that Labour crashed the economy. Gordon Brown was a Blair enabler.He was complicit in Blair's crimes. He was a disgrace as a chancellor, and catastrophe as prime minister. The reason we still have no money is because the economy has never recovered from his wretched tinkering.
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