Brexit Countdown

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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bobzilla77
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby bobzilla77 » 13 Mar 2019, 01:29

Is the next step then, a general election of politicians, or another referendum asking the public "Are you sure you want to leave the EU"? And then pick the politicians after that?
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Penk!
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Penk! » 13 Mar 2019, 04:47

bobzilla77 wrote:Is the next step then, a general election of politicians, or another referendum asking the public "Are you sure you want to leave the EU"? And then pick the politicians after that?


No one knows. No one has ever known. There is no plan for what to do.

Two and a half years and they still do not know what to do or how to get people to agree on something.

Everyone involved is an absolute fucking moron.
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Rorschach
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Rorschach » 13 Mar 2019, 07:48

PENK wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:Is the next step then, a general election of politicians, or another referendum asking the public "Are you sure you want to leave the EU"? And then pick the politicians after that?


No one knows. No one has ever known. There is no plan for what to do.


PENK wrote:Everyone involved is an absolute fucking moron.


I agree with both statements but I don't think they're necessarily connected.

From the moment a referendum with a binary choice was called we've been doomed. Public opinion has largely been about 50:50 from then till now so there was never going to be a clearly united country behind any decision. And there simply isn't anything like a consensus on what form Brexit should take (and there never can be) in Parliament. There is no possible deal that is acceptable to a majority of MPs. It doesn't matter how stupid they are; no solution exists.
Brexit won't be cancelled and there won't be a second referendum because that would destroy the Tory party and they'll never willingly let that happen. The choice seems to be finally accepting May's deal as the least worst option, and crashing out with no deal.
I think the latter is more likely.
Bugger off.

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Rorschach
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Rorschach » 13 Mar 2019, 07:55

PENK wrote:
Rorschach wrote:Phew. At last we expats can relax, knowing that, even though we're fucked, the Tory party can remain united.
And that's what counts.


Are you a Spanish citizen (I can only imagine the mountains of paperwork you'd have to go through to get that sorted)? My sister's lived over there for eight or nine years now, but I'm not sure where she's up to with getting citizenship.


I'm not. To become a Spanish citizen you have to renounce your British citizenship. I don't want to do that for four reasons:
1) I'm still sentimentally attached to being British.
2) The paperwork...
3) It would cost a lot of money.
4) We probably don't have to.

In theory, the Spanish government has agreed to maintain our 'permanent residency' and we don't have to do anything. My pension is probably fucked though.
If your sister's worried about it, put her in touch with me and I'll tell her the simple way to make sure her paperwork's up to date so she won't have any problems.
Bugger off.

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Penk!
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Penk! » 13 Mar 2019, 08:01

Rorschach wrote:
PENK wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:Is the next step then, a general election of politicians, or another referendum asking the public "Are you sure you want to leave the EU"? And then pick the politicians after that?


No one knows. No one has ever known. There is no plan for what to do.


PENK wrote:Everyone involved is an absolute fucking moron.


I agree with both statements but I don't think they're necessarily connected.

From the moment a referendum with a binary choice was called we've been doomed. Public opinion has largely been about 50:50 from then till now so there was never going to be a clearly united country behind any decision. And there simply isn't anything like a consensus on what form Brexit should take (and there never can be) in Parliament. There is no possible deal that is acceptable to a majority of MPs. It doesn't matter how stupid they are; no solution exists.


Oh, the ”everyone involved” certainly extends to Cameron, the Leave campaigners, the weak opposition and the 17.4m who voted, irresponsibly and indefensibly, for it. They’re all culpable.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.

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Penk!
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Penk! » 13 Mar 2019, 08:03

Rorschach wrote:If your sister's worried about it, put her in touch with me and I'll tell her the simple way to make sure her paperwork's up to date so she won't have any problems.


Cheers - she probably has it covered as her partner’s an auditor so if anyone knows their way around Spanish paperwork (big if, obviously) he surely does!
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby caramba » 13 Mar 2019, 09:01

PENK wrote:
Oh, the ”everyone involved” certainly extends to Cameron, the Leave campaigners, the weak opposition and the 17.4m who voted, irresponsibly and indefensibly, for it. They’re all culpable.



Like you, I was a remain voter and continue to want the UK to remain in the EU.

Unlike you, I don't think it's reasonable to vilify all 17.4 million whose views on staying in Europe differ to our own as being "irresponsible and indefensible" in expressing their opinion as was their democratic right.

Have you never stopped to consider that it's the condescension and dismissiveness of certain remain voters that almost certainly contributed to large numbers of leavers feeling marginalized and falling for the easy "Take Back Control" sloganeering the Leave campaign peddled?

Ultimately, Cameron never thought leave stood an earthly of passing. Hence his ramshackle organizing of a cack-handed referendum on an issue that has torn - and is sadly going to continue to tear - the UK apart in a way that even Thatcher could.

Don't know about you, but I'm very nervous about what's going to happen if the government attempts to ignore the wishes of such a large swathe of its electorate.


Good luck with your permanent residency, btw. Might well be worth looking into Spanish naturalization anyway

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Penk!
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Penk! » 13 Mar 2019, 09:11

caramba wrote:Unlike you, I don't think it's reasonable to vilify all 17.4 million whose views on staying in Europe differ to our own as being "irresponsible and indefensible" in expressing their opinion as was their democratic right.


If you vote for something on the scale of Brexit, which will so drastically affect tens of millions of people, despite the consequences being unclear and unexplained, the planning being less than nebulous, and none of the people campaigning for it being able to give any clear picture of what will happen or how it will happen then yeah, it's an unbelievably irresponsible way of exercising your democratic rights.

Many of the world's problems would be solved by only granting people the right to vote if they can successfully answer a brief questionnaire on what they are actually voting for ;)
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby caramba » 13 Mar 2019, 09:31

PENK wrote:
caramba wrote:Unlike you, I don't think it's reasonable to vilify all 17.4 million whose views on staying in Europe differ to our own as being "irresponsible and indefensible" in expressing their opinion as was their democratic right.


If you vote for something on the scale of Brexit, which will so drastically affect tens of millions of people, despite the consequences being unclear and unexplained, the planning being less than nebulous, and none of the people campaigning for it being able to give any clear picture of what will happen or how it will happen then yeah, it's an unbelievably irresponsible way of exercising your democratic rights.

Many of the world's problems would be solved by only granting people the right to vote if they can successfully answer a brief questionnaire on what they are actually voting for ;)


But surely the faults you identify are all down to those organizing and campaigning in the vote rather than those actually doing the voting. At the end of the day, it's no use blaming voters for making a call they are not qualified to express themselves and elect MPs to decide upon in their place.

Anyway, enough of what happened three years ago.The only question/argument that matters now is what happens next. On this, you sound every bit as horrified as I am about the prospect of a second referendum.

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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Penk! » 13 Mar 2019, 09:39

Oh, I don't know - if handled properly and responsibly by capable people with the terms and deals set out it could help people get a clearer picture of what the options are and might lead to a better result and a more manageable scenario..

But that's a gigantic bloody "if" and it will more likely lead to us voting to establish a new British Empire on Mars by 2024.
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caramba
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby caramba » 13 Mar 2019, 10:32

PENK wrote:Oh, I don't know - if handled properly and responsibly by capable people with the terms and deals set out it could help people get a clearer picture of what the options are and might lead to a better result and a more manageable scenario..

But that's a gigantic bloody "if" and it will more likely lead to us voting to establish a new British Empire on Mars by 2024.


The problem is, the leave campaigners are going to insist on something that closely replicates the original vote (i.e. no 55:45 majority - as they should have mandated first time around). Either way, should another vote take place, it promises to be a very nasty campaign on both sides.

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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Polishgirl » 14 Mar 2019, 00:15

When John Bercow shouts ‘Unlock!’, I want to punch the air.
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby caramba » 14 Mar 2019, 08:49

Now looks likely that May will reanimate her deal for another vote next week. There was talk about 10 days back of her giving Mogg and the ERG a firm promise she'd resign if they backed her and her deal finally went through. God only knows what she'll have to promise Arlene Foster and the scumbags in the DUP...

Far from being off the table, "No deal" is still very possible. As an EU spokesperson said last night. "The UK Parliament's vote is a bit like the Titanic deciding to order the iceberg to turn back". Given that months - possibly years - more uncertainty is as unappealing to Brussels as it is to many (most?) UK voters, it seems unlikely that they're going to want/allow the UK to stay in the EU parliament after the May 30 elections.

At the end of the day, it only takes one Eurosceptic among the EU's 27 members to close off any extension to Article 50. Would imagine Farage and Banks are already doing everything they can to ensure that veto happens.

Like the old Chinese curse says, "May you live in interesting times"...

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The Prof
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby The Prof » 14 Mar 2019, 09:17

John Berkow can, apparently, stop the same bill going back to a vote.

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Diamond Dog
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Diamond Dog » 14 Mar 2019, 10:04

The great irony is that having voted no to 'leave with this deal' no to 'leave without a deal' we may end up with 'give us a bit more time to get a deal to leave that we can approve' only for the EU to say "Nah, you're leaving on 29th March - ta ra!".

We could have saved ourselves just over two and a half years of political self abuse and had that exact same deal way back then.
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caramba
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby caramba » 14 Mar 2019, 10:17

Indeed. The wasted weeks, months and years are the biggest tragedy of this whole mess.

Rather than try and address issues that urgently need to be resolved - the fucking obscene rise (1400%?) in those sleeping on the streets since Cameron came to power being just one of them - MPs ha've spent the last three years shouting at each other.

The other great irony is that the people who are doing the most to derail any chance of Brexit happening are
Mogg and his not so merry band of arch-Brexiteers in the ERG.

On the subject of the word "Brexiteers", does anyone know why the Guardian insists on calling them "Brexiters"? I assume that it's because the G's style editor has decided that adding the extra "e" imbues them with a jauntiness they do not deserve.

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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Darkness_Fish » 14 Mar 2019, 10:34

Diamond Dog wrote:The great irony is that having voted no to 'leave with this deal' no to 'leave without a deal' we may end up with 'give us a bit more time to get a deal to leave that we can approve' only for the EU to say "Nah, you're leaving on 29th March - ta ra!".

The thing about this "can we get an extension" nonsense, is that surely we can just revoke article 50, and then re-invoke it at a time of our choosing? I'm not saying that's politically a winning stance, or sensible, but the idea that we can't get a delay is wrong on that basis. I reckon there's a good chance we will go down that route, revoking article 50 'temporarily' and having another decade of discussions about when's the best time/what's the best plan to re-invoke it.
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Penk! » 14 Mar 2019, 10:45

I’m pretty sure that [insert name of interchangeable Francophone politician here] has said that Article 50 is not a toy and that it can legally be extended, but not reset. Revoking it is final.
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Diamond Dog » 14 Mar 2019, 10:50

PENK wrote:I’m pretty sure that [insert name of interchangeable Francophone politician here] has said that Article 50 is not a toy and that it can legally be extended, but not reset. Revoking it is final.


But as DF says, if we revoke it, it is final.

Until we decide to invoke it again :)
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Re: Brexit Countdown

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2019, 10:53

Got a laugh out of my wife while watching a snippet of Brexit news. When the "speaker" shouted, "The ayes have it! The ayes have it!" She asked me, "Who talks like that anymore?" "Pirates," I said.
Cold War Number One: 70 years of daily national stupidity. Cold War Number Two: Still in its youth, but just as stupid. - William Blum