The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby yomptepi » 02 Sep 2018, 20:53

Butch Manly wrote:Surely, even critics of Corbyn find it troubling how little time is given to other Jewish voices than the official line. As Michael Rosen says, there is not one Jewish community in the UK. Call me old-fashioned but I tend to listen to him more than the likes of Dougie seeing as is he is actually Jewish and the likes of rabbi Sacks because he isn't actually a rabid anti-Palestinian, pro-settler racist.


You seem to be under the delusion that the whole thing is anything other than Israeli shit stirring. I have never thought for one minute that there was a genuine problem with antisemitism within the Labour party. Just incompetence when it came to dealing with it. Reading back over the thread as a whole, it is disappointing how dismissive the loony left have been of the real Jewish voices which contributed. I thought there were some good points well made, which were simply steamrollered by the mad rush to be seen as king/queen virtue signaler. It is a shame that in the stampede to be politically correct, some real insight was disregarded. A missed opportunity.

Whatever the truth or otherwise of the matter, it has given the tories the summer off. So at least there was a winner.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Sep 2018, 21:12

yomptepi wrote:You seem to be under the delusion that the whole thing is anything other than Israeli shit stirring. I have never thought for one minute that there was a genuine problem with antisemitism within the Labour party. Just incompetence when it came to dealing with it.


That is odd. I had a conversation earlier where we arrived at almost the same conclusion. The failure to adopt the whole of the IHRA guidelines on anti-semitism was bad politics - simple as that. For something that could/should have been so easy to pass, it became an unnecessary stick to beat Corbyn with when the alternative was adopted instead - and, let's be honest here, the reasons for the amendment were so miniscule in the general public's eye that the loss far outweighed any potential gain. It was naive politics and has created a completely avoidable shitstorm.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby The Prof » 02 Sep 2018, 21:44

But even if the IHRI definition and examples were accepted in full, there would and will be something else, something dredged up from goodness knows where twisted around and used to attack Corbyn with

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Sep 2018, 21:44

The Prof wrote:But even if the IHRI definition and examples were accepted in full, there would and will be something else, something dredged up from goodness knows where twisted around and used to attack Corbyn with


Of course. But it handed the opponents a very easy own goal.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Belle Lettre » 02 Sep 2018, 21:54

Reading back over the thread as a whole, it is disappointing how dismissive the loony left have been of the real Jewish voices which contributed


I don't understand you, Yomp? Many Jewish contributors have been alluded to and quoted on this thread.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby yomptepi » 02 Sep 2018, 22:05

The Jewish voices from BCB. Not from the partisan and compromised press.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Pansy Puff » 02 Sep 2018, 22:11

Isn't this

We broadly accept the IHRA definition, but propose two additional clarifications to ensure that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel and Palestine, without allowing antisemitism to permeate any debate. The definition should include the following statements:
It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent
.

Pretty much the Labour party line?
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Butch Manly » 02 Sep 2018, 22:13

yomptepi wrote:
Butch Manly wrote:Surely, even critics of Corbyn find it troubling how little time is given to other Jewish voices than the official line. As Michael Rosen says, there is not one Jewish community in the UK. Call me old-fashioned but I tend to listen to him more than the likes of Dougie seeing as is he is actually Jewish and the likes of rabbi Sacks because he isn't actually a rabid anti-Palestinian, pro-settler racist.


You seem to be under the delusion that the whole thing is anything other than Israeli shit stirring. I have never thought for one minute that there was a genuine problem with antisemitism within the Labour party. Just incompetence when it came to dealing with it. Reading back over the thread as a whole, it is disappointing how dismissive the loony left have been of the real Jewish voices which contributed. I thought there were some good points well made, which were simply steamrollered by the mad rush to be seen as king/queen virtue signaler. It is a shame that in the stampede to be politically correct, some real insight was disregarded. A missed opportunity.

Whatever the truth or otherwise of the matter, it has given the tories the summer off. So at least there was a winner.


Mikel, this is an orchestrated witch-hunt and you know it. Mandelson, Campbell and all the others have latched onto this and are cleverly orchestrating a drip feed of supposed scandal against the man who is less of an antisemite than any of them. Yes, it benefits the Israeli hasbara cause but it also benefits the people who want to wrest power back in the Labour Party. A symbiotic witch hunt.

The sad thing is that it will only serve to heighten racism and, therefore, anti-Semitism in this country in the long run.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Butch Manly » 02 Sep 2018, 22:14

Belle Lettre wrote:
Reading back over the thread as a whole, it is disappointing how dismissive the loony left have been of the real Jewish voices which contributed


I don't understand you, Yomp? Many Jewish contributors have been alluded to and quoted on this thread.


Quite.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby yomptepi » 02 Sep 2018, 22:22

Butch Manly wrote:[

Mikel, this is an orchestrated witch-hunt and you know it. Mandelson, Campbell and all the others have latched onto this and are cleverly orchestrating a drip feed of supposed scandal against the man who is less of an antisemite than any of them. Yes, it benefits the Israeli hasbara cause but it also benefits the people who want to wrest power back in the Labour Party. A symbiotic witch hunt.

The sad thing is that it will only serve to heighten racism and, therefore, anti-Semitism in this country in the long run.


You may be right, but it has served to highlight Corbyn's utter incompetence. He laziness, and his inability to deal with any issue bigger than free licence fees for the elderly. Were he made of sterner stuff, and if he commanded respect , rather than adulation, then things would be different. As it is, he is little more than a vainglorious popinjay, his ego stuffed with the songs of the children who follow him without thought. He is so busy being self important that the real business of opposition has been completely forgotten during a period of severe political instability. He has been sidelined, with ease, by those he sought to supersede. No surprise to those of us who had his number from the off.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Sep 2018, 23:32

yomptepi wrote:
You may be right, but it has served to highlight Corbyn's utter incompetence. He laziness, and his inability to deal with any issue bigger than free licence fees for the elderly. Were he made of sterner stuff, and if he commanded respect , rather than adulation, then things would be different. As it is, he is little more than a vainglorious popinjay, his ego stuffed with the songs of the children who follow him without thought.


And it's the left that treat voters from the 'other side' disrespectfully, right?
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby yomptepi » 03 Sep 2018, 00:03

Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
You may be right, but it has served to highlight Corbyn's utter incompetence. He laziness, and his inability to deal with any issue bigger than free licence fees for the elderly. Were he made of sterner stuff, and if he commanded respect , rather than adulation, then things would be different. As it is, he is little more than a vainglorious popinjay, his ego stuffed with the songs of the children who follow him without thought.


And it's the left that treat voters from the 'other side' disrespectfully, right?


Well, you got what you voted for. How's that working out for you? You have a leader who is more interested in having his ego stroked than opposing a dangerously incompetent government. I bet those Bullingdon boys cannot believe their luck.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Copehead » 03 Sep 2018, 08:18

yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
You may be right, but it has served to highlight Corbyn's utter incompetence. He laziness, and his inability to deal with any issue bigger than free licence fees for the elderly. Were he made of sterner stuff, and if he commanded respect , rather than adulation, then things would be different. As it is, he is little more than a vainglorious popinjay, his ego stuffed with the songs of the children who follow him without thought.


And it's the left that treat voters from the 'other side' disrespectfully, right?


Well, you got what you voted for. How's that working out for you? You have a leader who is more interested in having his ego stroked than opposing a dangerously incompetent government. I bet those Bullingdon boys cannot believe their luck.


I believe the Bullingdon Boys are trotters up at the moment rather than in government.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Sep 2018, 09:12

yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
You may be right, but it has served to highlight Corbyn's utter incompetence. He laziness, and his inability to deal with any issue bigger than free licence fees for the elderly. Were he made of sterner stuff, and if he commanded respect , rather than adulation, then things would be different. As it is, he is little more than a vainglorious popinjay, his ego stuffed with the songs of the children who follow him without thought.


And it's the left that treat voters from the 'other side' disrespectfully, right?


Well, you got what you voted for. How's that working out for you? You have a leader who is more interested in having his ego stroked than opposing a dangerously incompetent government. I bet those Bullingdon boys cannot believe their luck.


So that negates calling those that did vote for Corbyn "Children" does it?

My reference was spurred by Toby's assertion :

Toby wrote:If someone is a Tory or has right wing views, they are castigated, called names, laughed at or generally believed to be utterly deluded.

The fact is that around half the country is right wing. Just normal people going about their business, not being involved with politics but being a part of the fabric of society. Some hold views that might not be acceptable to the enlightened left, but they obey the law and contribute to life in general.

I find it troubling that you, an educated middle-aged man, are willing to call half the population, or probably even more, idiots and whatever derisory epithet you come up with next.


You know, you Tories (and, yes, you are a Tory Michael - you're just in complete denial) adopt this 'holier than thou' position, like you play fair whilst the oiks throw the insults around. And it's complete and utter bollocks.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Deebank » 03 Sep 2018, 09:32

yomptepi wrote:You seem to be under the delusion that the whole thing is anything other than Israeli shit stirring. I have never thought for one minute that there was a genuine problem with antisemitism within the Labour party. Just incompetence when it came to dealing with it.


I'm inclined to agree up to a point.

It is however always a nightmare for anyone in the Labour movement to deal with questions about Israel - it is the ultimate lefty bear trap and Corbyn was herded right into it. Any criticism - no matter how valid - of Israel is always given as evidence of antisemitism by certain parties. In my day the UJS would get hysterical at any NUS conference motions attacking Israel.

So now Corbyn either has to own up to this (hardly existent) antisemitism - acknowledging something that barely exists for the sake of moving on (and let's be clear here, Sacks and the tories and the Blairites will always use it as a stick to beat him with whatever he does) or brazen it out. It is now a no win situation.

Corbyn's mistake perhaps was to assume that because of his long and illustrious career fighting racism and fascism that he was immune to accusations of antisemitism. And there persists this idea that he is above reproach. Of course the various jewish groups and the right wing press will always see him as buried under layers of it regardless of the fact that there is really nothing of any substance to pin on him.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the voting public actually give much of a shit (sad perhaps). This whole row hardly seems to have bothered his poll ratings. But it has proved to be a useful jemmy to prise apart an already divided Labour Party.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Sep 2018, 10:12

It's been a very useful diversion for a Tory party that is absolutely split asunder with the Brexit negotiations descending into complete farce.

Interesting that.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Deebank » 03 Sep 2018, 10:30

Diamond Dog wrote:It's been a very useful diversion for a Tory party that is absolutely split asunder with the Brexit negotiations descending into complete farce.

Interesting that.


Yes that too of course.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby The Prof » 03 Sep 2018, 10:34

On the other hand, he's probably in a safer position defending this supposed anti-semitism than he is on a tightrope between Brexit and what's best for the country.

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby yomptepi » 03 Sep 2018, 11:17

Diamond Dog wrote:It's been a very useful diversion for a Tory party that is absolutely split asunder with the Brexit negotiations descending into complete farce.

Interesting that.


Do you even read my posts, or are are you so consumed with outing me as a tory that , that like most Labour supporters here, you would rather guess at what at I might be saying and assume I must me to the right of Attila the Hun for daring to criticise the sainted Corbyn? Just because I point out that he is a terrible , terrible leader with some regularity does not make me a tory. My concern is that the lack of opposition have allowed this weak and flawed government to become a runaway train. Corbyn's cult of personality, which you are clearly a supporter of, allows him to be the worst leader of the opposition in modern history, whilst the witless drones try and condone his total inability to tackle even the smallest political issue. He is invisible. His cabinet are invisible. His policies are non existent and his economic plans are nonsense. Only a child would consider him suitable for leader.

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Sep 2018, 11:26

Do you fucking well read mine?! I don't give a fuck what you think of him as a leader, my point was about calling anyone that does support him a child!!
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