The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Diamond Dog
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Aug 2018, 16:50

Toby wrote:I know, it really is bloody dreadful. Just pages and pages of hectoring back and forth over details about which no-one has any concrete evidence of anything.


Right.

But some are posting as though they do - that's the point.

You never get involved in these do you Toby?
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Jimbo » 07 Aug 2018, 16:55

Everyone's argument has some merit. I'm impressed with all of your writing chops. Good work everyone!
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Aug 2018, 17:01

.....
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 07 Aug 2018, 17:25

Super Furry Animals wrote:Image

would anyone care for an After Eight mint?


Sorry, John, are you feeling ignored?
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 07 Aug 2018, 17:36

Belle Lettre wrote:From the Left Unity page on Facebook:

Yesterday when the fascists attacked Bookmarks they called the staff 'anti-Semites'. When the fascists have been confronted on the streets the fascists have chanted at the left 'anti-Semites off our streets'. This campaign aimed at removing Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour leadership is playing the same functional role as the 'social fascism' campaign of the 1930s - dividing the left and effectively opening a political space for the growth of the far right because if Corbyn is 'an existential threat to Jewish life' then he and the LP must be the main enemy not Robinson and his fascist thugs.


Yeah, but ...... Corbyn.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Aug 2018, 18:32

I hope Corbyn doesn't apologise. The time wasted on people being offended for no good reason is time not spent tackling real problems.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Aug 2018, 18:36

“It is ridiculous that these views are being attacked – we must not fall into the trap of shutting down the debate on difficult issues.

“We have to call it out. If we fail to speak up for liberal values then we are simply yielding ground to reactionaries and extremists.”
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Deebank » 07 Aug 2018, 18:38

Pansy Puff wrote:I hope Corbyn doesn't apologise. The time wasted on people being offended for no good reason is time not spent tackling real problems.


Boris hasn’t apologised for insulting millions of Muslims, so why should Corbyn apologise for doing nothing to no one?
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby The Modernist » 07 Aug 2018, 18:48

For what it's worth I didn't think what Johnson said was so bad, I agreed with the substance of it. But he made a couple of flippant jokes, as is his want, which were inappropriate for such an emotive issue..it was more the tone of his remarks than the substance which were wrong IMO.

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Goat Boy » 07 Aug 2018, 19:16

The Modernist wrote:
I'm glad you've posted that example because it typifies, for me, one of the main issues here. Let's look at this:

We are condemning Corbyn on a second hand account, by someone anonymous, on his behaviour on a programme that is unavailable and can't be checked and we are doing it without context or detail.
You can see how this might be very problematic?
This is why people are using phrases like 'witch hunt' on this. A whole heap of mud is being flung at him with the hope that some of it will stick. It is being done within the context of social media outrage and hysteria, which, sadly, is the world we live in now and one where facts quickly fall by the wayside. Your argument from the beginning, frankly, has been full of this kind of 'guilt by association', 'no smoke without fire' type argument. It is highly emotive and yes I believe there is an agenda here (from the people who are engineering these attacks in the media) - people are being manipulated.


Here’s the video. It starts around 7mins in.

http://thetorch.org.uk/corbyn-under-new-pressure-for-iranian-tv-appearance/

Notice at 7.14 how quickly Corbyn pulls him up and asks a question to clarify something. And yet when he describes Israel as a disease he says ok but he doesn’t challenge him, you know? if somebody referred to some African nation as a nation of monkeys do you think he would say something? Do you think he should? Corbyn can do anything and some will excuse him. That's obvious by now.

What I have objected to the whole thread is you and others questioning the response of many British Jews and saying this is part of some coordinated campaign that includes them and the right wing media and that’s what really is going on here. They have been described as “beneath contempt” by the way. This position has been put forward by Copehead and endorsed by others.

Your argument from the beginning, frankly, has been full of this kind of 'guilt by association', 'no smoke without fire' type argument. It is highly emotive and yes I believe there is an agenda here (from the people who are engineering these attacks in the media) - people are being manipulated.


Guilt by association? What I am accusing him off has been spelled out repeatedly: turning a blind eye to anti-semitism because it's expedient for his cause to do so. That is not something that can be forgiven in my book or waved away. You still seem to be implying, correct me if I’m wrong, that I believe his is anti-semitic myself? I dunno man. I think his flaws are obvious but his flaws are also Their flaws too, to a degree, which is why it's impossible for some to understand the objections. I have talked at length of this thread but this has also made me rethink some things about this place and some of the people on here.

Truthfully I'm bored now.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Goat Boy » 07 Aug 2018, 19:20

Diamond Dog wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
Do I need to add imo after that to reinforce that? I am not presenting facts, I am implying causality between different events: the opening up of the Labour party which significantly increased the membership and the influence of Corbyn as leader. Is it really so far fetched to infer that the
significant increase in member numbers also meant a significant increase in undesirables and that due to Corbyns history, associations and position on Israel it has created a toxicity within the party?


.


Yes actually it is. It's a complete non sequitur, it truly is. There is absolutely no evidence that this is true, not a single shred. You have just wished that to be, to reinforce your view that Corbyn is weak on Anti-Semitism and the increase in membership was the enabler to it running rife throughout the party.

What you've actually done is worked backwards :

I believe Corbyn is weak on Anti-Semitism, therefore
He's looking to get the party to mirror his views, therefore
There are many people with similar views in the party, therefore
They all joined during the £3 membership period, therefore
Corbyn orchestrated that to get a party that echoes his weakness on anti-semitism.

Now - how does that look?

It's called reverse engineering Dougie. You have made the plot fit the final chapter.


It looks wrong.

You fall down at the first hurdle.

I believe Corbyn is weak on anti-Semitism.

Corbyn has admitted the Labour party hasn't done enough to challenge anti-Semitism. He is therefore admitting it has been weak under his leadership, yes? The Chakrabarti inquiry supports this:

The report concludes that the party "is not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism," but has suffered from an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and "too much clear evidence [of] ignorant attitudes"


The cross party committee also said:

The Committee said that Chakrabati had been "insufficiently open" in her answers to them over when she was offered her peerage, criticised the party's handling of the report and earlier allegations and complaints and suggested that Corbyn lacked understanding of "the distinct nature of post-second-world-war antisemitism"[20]


The report also found that the failure of the Labour Party to deal consistently and effectively with anti-Semitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionall anti-Semitic


Therefore evidence. My conclusion is supported by the Chakrarbati inquiry and Jeremy Corbyn himself.

I am looking for casualties to explore what others have concluded and which Corbyn himself has admitted. You may disagree with my initial proposition and my belief that Corbyn himself has emboldened arseholes but the final chapter is what it is.

He's looking to get the party to mirror his views, therefore


True. Why would a dogmatic ideologue not want the party to mirror his own views? He surrounds himself with people who share his views and isn't very good at talking to people who don't - his approach to Israel and Palestine over decades simply supports this. Corbyn undeniably want to shift the party further to the left so it is as ideologically close to himself as possible, of course he does, otherwise he wouldn’t do be doing what he’s attempting to do. His supporters are this way inclined too – Corbyn is the conduit - hence the #resignWatson nonsense for people who criticise and challenge his authority despite his admission that the party and by extension himself haven't done enough to challenge anti-Semitism.

They all joined during the £3 membership period, therefore


No.....

Goat Boy wrote:The three pound entry thing opened the doors to all kinds of unsavoury cunts from the far left sadly. I think Corbyn's appointment emboldened these people, some of whom have joined since he became appointed and some who were already there sadly.


Which was in reply to this by K:

I don't understand why Ed Miliband didn't do something to root out these anti-Semites when he was leader. Or did they all join post 2015


I am clearly stating that not all the “unsavoury cunts” joined during that membership period but that Cornyn’s leadership has metaphorically opened the door for those who did and also for those who were already there. I am saying as the party membership increased so did the number of idiots. How can it not? That’s logic, right? But that creates a weird tension because you have all these new members (I suspect the vetting process wasn’t what it could have been), and that’s great, because our “movement” is on the up. But some are awful and that’s bad. Of course if you then try and get rid of these awful people, for obvious reasons, that draws negative attention to the “movement” . Which is bad. I think this can lead to creating a culture of tolerance towards people who may have questionable views but who, ultimately, are on our side therefore we naturally accommodate them, to some degree. I think that’s a natural dynamic. Look at Corbyn! That partly explains his bullshit.

Corbyn orchestrated that to get a party that echoes his weakness on anti-semitism.


I’m not sure if you are trying to make it sound as if Corbyn is worse than I think he is!

Corbyn used it to gain power. He is blind to his own hypocrisies however as are some on the left in regards to anti-Semitism. The evidence is his political career. Therefore they naturally feed off each other. The unforeseen by-product of this was to increase the membership and therefore increase the number of dickheads like him who are blind to anti-Semitism on the left, or at least turn a blind eye. The same applies to non-party members who are simply attracted to the "movement" because Corbyn is ideologically closer to them than anybody else. So then you get all the wankers on social media, the silly anarchists and so on slagging off people for people Israel shills or whatever.

and the increase in membership was the enabler to it running rife throughout the party.


I said that the enabler was partly these new people but also Corbyn himself. I never said it was “rife” either. Please don’t misinterpret what I’m saying.

If you would like to answer this then I'd be interested to read your thoughts, Pete:

Maybe you should also ask some people on this thread for evidence of the witch hunt that proves what is actually going on here. Maybe someone should ask for the evidence that proves Louise Ellman was actually at that event with Corbyn rather than some second hand recollection that cannot be verified. Maybe someone should ask for the evidence that proves Mandelson is secretly orchestrating things along with Campbell. Maybe someone should ask for the evidence that proves that there is a "coordinated attack" by British Jews and the right wing media, that shadowy cabal determined to strike at the heart of our democracy. Maybe someone should ask for proof that the British Jews who are criticising Corbyn and Labour are right wing "ultra zionists" who object to Corbyn simply because he is a socialist and critical of Israel rather than a broad coalition of British Jews across the political spectrum who object to Corbyn and their handling of anti-semitism within the party.


Later
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Aug 2018, 20:25

tl:dnr

:lol:

Will come back to this later (or tomorrow) when I have a few spare hours.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby The Modernist » 07 Aug 2018, 20:57

Goat Boy wrote:
Here’s the video. It starts around 7mins in.

http://thetorch.org.uk/corbyn-under-new-pressure-for-iranian-tv-appearance/

Notice at 7.14 how quickly Corbyn pulls him up and asks a question to clarify something. And yet when he describes Israel as a disease he says ok but he doesn’t challenge him, you know? if somebody referred to some African nation as a nation of monkeys do you think he would say something? Do you think he should? Corbyn can do anything and some will excuse him. That's obvious by now.



Honestly, I get fed up with constantly disagreeing with you on this and would like to find common ground, but when you post this sort of stuff I really don't know what to say. I watched the video and saw him, rather uncomfortably, trying to host a phone in debate. He had to field a lot of callers, most of whom seemed pretty inarticulate and who were heavily accented. This was especially true of the caller you have highlighted - I couldn't understand what he was going on about, so I'm not surprised Corbyn didn't challenge him. You know what it reminded me of? These football phone ins where you get a fan phoning in with some mad rant after being in the pub for three hours and the host will say " ..er thank you for that point but we need to move on. Bob from Norwich wants to talk about Jurgen Klopp!" .
It's absolutely desperate stuff if you're going to condemn him for that. This is getting seriously ridiculous.

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Goat Boy » 07 Aug 2018, 21:51

You dismiss everything, from commenting on antisemitic murals to calling hamas peace seeking social justice warriors and inviting anti-semitic homophobes round for tea. I'm sure you'd dismiss his stance on Kosovo as well. Everything is met with a shrug.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Copehead » 07 Aug 2018, 22:27

The Modernist wrote:For what it's worth I didn't think what Johnson said was so bad, I agreed with the substance of it. But he made a couple of flippant jokes, as is his want, which were inappropriate for such an emotive issue..it was more the tone of his remarks than the substance which were wrong IMO.


It is part of a pattern of racist behavior though.

I doubt he is even a proper racist, he is a sociopathic narcissist, he doesn't just think Muslim Women and Black Africans are inferior to him he thinks everybody is inferior to him. He couches his racism in flippancy and throw away insults that he can disown as bants, and yet he doesn't even have to do that as he is never held to account for his behavior.

But it is instructive that Tories like Toby and Dougie won't even address his behavior let alone condemn it, much like the wider Tory world and their media.

At heart Dougie and Toby are complete hypocrites because their behavior shows they are aren't interested in fighting racism they are interested in fighting the Labour Party; because if you want to fight racism in British politics you'd start with the Tory Party and the people in the media building Yaxley-Lennon ( let's call him by his real name not his stage name ) into a personality in the same way they did Farage.

Normalising fascism, that's going to end well for Jewish people :roll:
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Aug 2018, 22:28

Christ, here we go. Out of over half a million members of the Labour party there are 70 cases pending against suspended members, some of which relate to anti-Semitism.
This, therefore, clearly lays "bare the scale of the challenge the party’s governing body faces in tackling antisemitism"


Leaked Labour papers reveal scale of challenge to tackle antisemitism
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... _clipboard
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Belle Lettre » 07 Aug 2018, 22:34

What's the fucking point, eh? Nobody's going to rest till we're back with some Umunna/Kendall hybrid and a guarantee that nothing much will ever change.
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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby The Prof » 07 Aug 2018, 22:43

Belle Lettre wrote:some Umunna/Kendall hybrid


Sound great.


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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby The Modernist » 07 Aug 2018, 22:44

Belle Lettre wrote:What's the fucking point, eh? Nobody's going to rest till we're back with some Umunna/Kendall hybrid and a guarantee that nothing much will ever change.


That's how I feel Carol. Depressing isn't it?

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Re: The demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn

Postby Goat Boy » 07 Aug 2018, 22:46

I least Kendall was hot
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal