I hear some people died in Gaza

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 14:38

Pete, you should know very well what would have happened if the fence had been breached.


The problem on this thread, as it always is when we discuss the Israeli-Palestinian situation, is that most people on here are partisan Palestinian supporters who see the conflict only through that prism.

For them, it's axiomatic that nothing is ever really the fault of the Palestinians. But the Israelis are uniquely cruel, wicked, murderous, even genocidal. There's no attempt to look at it with a dispassionate, rational mind.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Geezee » 29 May 2018, 14:45

Which is utterly inaccurate, and conversely is the typical response of a zionist. I don't believe anyone underestimates the threat that Israel lives under. But I believe it is perfectly possible to recognise and condemn a genocide when one sees one, without undermining that general premise.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 16:04

Diamond Dog wrote:Confirmed by who - the Israelis or the Palestinians?


And what does a member of Hamas even mean?

Hamas isn't an army it is a political organization.

That's like saying we killed 100 people but 90 of them were members of the Conservative Party, so no harm done.

It is the disgusting attempt to legitimize the murder of dozens of people, before we even get to the shooting of thousands, engaged in a demonstration against their incarceration in a ghetto.

It truly disgusts me the way that people will try and victim blame their way out of this terrible massacre.

And before Nick gets back to victim blaming and reframing the point of the argument I'd like to point out that is despise nearly everything Hamas stand for politically but I recognize them as the democratically elected representatives of the people of Gaza. People in extreme situations vote for extreme parties, look at the DUP in Northern Ireland.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 16:18

Insouciant Western People wrote:Pete, you should know very well what would have happened if the fence had been breached.


The IDF would have killed even more unarmed people?

The problem on this thread, as it always is when we discuss the Israeli-Palestinian situation, is that most people on here are partisan Palestinian supporters who see the conflict only through that prism.


:lol:

Most people here recognize cold blooded murder from a distance when they see it, whether that means you are a partisan Palestinian supporter is another thing.

I fully accept Israel's right to exist, it is a political fact on the ground and has been for 70 years. The lefts default position on Israel was strong support until the 80s and so was mine. But the truth of the matter now is that Israel is a far right, nuclear armed, rogue state that has made itself a pariah state for practically every other country on Earth other than the USA.

For them, it's axiomatic that nothing is ever really the fault of the Palestinians. But the Israelis are uniquely cruel, wicked, murderous, even genocidal. There's no attempt to look at it with a dispassionate, rational mind.


You will not address the actions of the Israeli government and army in incarcerating and murdering with impunity a whole population will you?

The idea that you alone here have a dispassionate, rational mind is risible. You are a cheerleader for the massacre of men, women, children, foreign medics and people in wheel chairs.

The idea that this is all ok because they got close to a fence that incarcerates them and that some of the dead were members of a political party is sick.

The Israeli state is not uniquely cruel, wicked, murderous, even genocidal but it is increasingly being cruel, wicked, murderous, even genocidal. How many more men, women, children, foreign medics and people in wheel chairs will need to be shot by snipers in bunkers before you start to acknowledge something has gone terribly wrong with the Israeli state?


How many more
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 17:52

Copehead wrote:And what does a member of Hamas even mean?

Hamas isn't an army it is a political organization.


It's both a political and and a military organisation (as well as a designated terrorist organisation).

There are the political leaders of Hamas, and then there are the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, which are made up of a hard core of several hundred military-trained fighters, and then somewhere between 30,000-50,000 paramilitary irregulars who have varying levels of training and combat experience.

The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades often operate without the direction or knowledge of the political leadership.

Here's a photo. They look like peaceable chaps, don't they?

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There's also what's called the Dawa wing, the hearts and minds branch of Hamas.





Copehead wrote:And before Nick gets back to victim blaming and reframing the point of the argument I'd like to point out that is despise nearly everything Hamas stand for politically but I recognize them as the democratically elected representatives of the people of Gaza.


We've been here before, and last time I pointed out that Hamas have been elected once, twelve years ago. Read that Tablet article I posted earlier, the great majority of the people of Gaza most likely now want rid of them, but they're stuck with them for the forseeable.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 18:01

Copehead wrote:You will not address the actions of the Israeli government and army in incarcerating and murdering with impunity a whole population will you?


Of course I will criticise the Israeli government's actions when they go too far, I've done it before on here and I'll do it again.

What I've been arguing against on here is the inaccuracy and overall tone of monomaniacal and hysterical condemnation from people like you who charge in and shoot off your mouths without first waiting for the facts, or considering that there are other sides to the argument.

Again, read that Tablet article I posted earlier. It's admirably even-handed.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 19:01

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:And what does a member of Hamas even mean?

Hamas isn't an army it is a political organization.


It's both a political and and a military organisation (as well as a designated terrorist organisation).

There are the political leaders of Hamas, and then there are the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, which are made up of a hard core of several hundred military-trained fighters, and then somewhere between 30,000-50,000 paramilitary irregulars who have varying levels of training and combat experience.

The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades often operate without the direction or knowledge of the political leadership.

Here's a photo. They look like peaceable chaps, don't they?

Image

There's also what's called the Dawa wing, the hearts and minds branch of Hamas.





Copehead wrote:And before Nick gets back to victim blaming and reframing the point of the argument I'd like to point out that is despise nearly everything Hamas stand for politically but I recognize them as the democratically elected representatives of the people of Gaza.


We've been here before, and last time I pointed out that Hamas have been elected once, twelve years ago. Read that Tablet article I posted earlier, the great majority of the people of Gaza most likely now want rid of them, but they're stuck with them for the forseeable.


So you assume everyone who is a member of Hamas is a scary man with a black mask a gun.

It is thoroughly depressing to see the right trotting out the same justifications for gunning down unarmed people as they did 40 years ago on Bloody Sunday - some of them may have been bad men - as if shooting people in wheelchairs from a distance of about a mile is somehow excused by that.

It is always worthwhile to see who will debase themselves by using these justifications to excuse murder though
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 19:03

Insouciant Western People wrote:[We've been here before, and last time I pointed out that Hamas have been elected once, twelve years ago. Read that Tablet article I posted earlier, the great majority of the people of Gaza most likely now want rid of them, but they're stuck with them for the forseeable.


Pretty hard to organize elections is a prison I'd imagine.
Do you think the there would be any change if they somehow managed to organize another election in this ghetto?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 19:04

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:You will not address the actions of the Israeli government and army in incarcerating and murdering with impunity a whole population will you?


Of course I will criticise the Israeli government's actions when they go too far, I've done it before on here and I'll do it again.


Apparently deliberately shooting people in wheelchairs from bunker a mile away isn't going too far in your book then.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 19:04

Insouciant Western People wrote:
The problem on this thread, as it always is when we discuss the Israeli-Palestinian situation, is that most people on here are partisan Palestinian supporters who see the conflict only through that prism.


Not true. I expect that most, perhaps all, supporters on here of the Palestinians' resistance to the illegal occupation of their lands and their iniquitous treatment at the hands of the Israeli state actually deeply sympathise with the historic plight of both peoples. If anything, it is you who has shown a disdain for "Islam as an ideology" (as you put it) in the past, something which may make some wonder if you really do look at both sides and see ordinary, innocent people on both sides, untainted by any personal prejudice. Careful with that prism of yours, Nick. It's already had you making lofty pronouncements on the validity of a courageous old activist's (the grandson of a holocaust victim) honest assessment of the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state and dismissing a cold-blooded massacre of unarmed civilians as some heroic Israeli act. And I note that you've little interest in engaging with the personal testimonies of ex-IDF soldiers on the BreakingTheSilence website. A pity, since they represent impartial, primary source evidence that should surely form a significant part of any informed, even-handed assessment of the true state of affairs.

For them, it's axiomatic that nothing is ever really the fault of the Palestinians. But the Israelis are uniquely cruel, wicked, murderous, even genocidal. There's no attempt to look at it with a dispassionate, rational mind.


Again, not true. In fact, I completely reject your (sadly predictable) hasbará-esque characterisation of we critics of the Israeli state's actions as people who see the Israeli people as "uniquely cruel, wicked, murderous, even genocidal." There is a subtle yet crucial difference.

But then again, your position on who and what "The Palestinians" and "Hamas" actually are tends to waver and mutate depending on how it suits your argument. Sometimes I get the impression that you see every single person on the Gaza strip as a dangerous militant - an army of 2 million, every one of them ready and plotting to murder Israelis in their beds whilst at other times you paint it as a ghetto of hapless Arabs in the grip of an evil few fundamentalists. Which one is it, Nick?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 19:14

Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:You will not address the actions of the Israeli government and army in incarcerating and murdering with impunity a whole population will you?


Of course I will criticise the Israeli government's actions when they go too far, I've done it before on here and I'll do it again.


Apparently deliberately shooting people in wheelchairs from bunker a mile away isn't going to far in your book then.


Quite. :roll:
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Goat Boy » 29 May 2018, 19:16

Oy vey!
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 20:00

Vic Snazell-Sprey wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
Of course I will criticise the Israeli government's actions when they go too far, I've done it before on here and I'll do it again.


Apparently deliberately shooting people in wheelchairs from bunker a mile away isn't going to far in your book then.


Quite. :roll:


It is literally victim blaming; 2000 of you got shot by snipers you couldn't even see because you approached the walls of your prison?
Well shouldn't have done x,y,z.
As if x,y,z excuses shooting a man in a wheelchair, when you know exactly what you are doing because you are using a sniper rifle, and a medic trying to help the wounded, amongst dozens of others.
And when x,y,z are usually insinuations that no evidence is supplied for.

What would these protestors have done if they had breached the fence? probably danced around had a big party and gone home for tea, what does Nick think they would have done taken Tel Aviv with massive slaughter using the knives that some of them were possibly carrying?

There is no justification for this slaughter that isn't in some way depraved.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 01 Jun 2018, 12:17

Jimbo wrote: The truth in Israel, re the Gaza protests, is that the Israeli government and army are responding as cruelly as can be.


It's not just the killings, Jimbo:

Children in Israeli detention suffer scars for life

Annelies Verbeek The Electronic Intifada 25 May 2018



Muhammad Tamimi sat on the couch, occasionally laughing nervously as he described what had happened to him.

“Not that many journalists have come this time,” he said. “Just you and a Palestinian film crew. Hopefully there will not be any more.”

The 15-year-old has been held in military detention three times now, an experience that many Palestinian children suffer and that has healthcare professionals warning of lifelong trauma.

Muhammad’s latest detention came on the morning of Sunday, 20 May, when he went to the supermarket in Nabi Saleh, his village in the occupied West Bank, to buy groceries. He noticed a white car in front of his uncle’s house from which two young men emerged.

When Muhammad approached, the men grabbed him from behind and pulled him into the car.

“They pointed a gun at me, so I would not scream or call for help,” Muhammad said, recounting the short but frightening drive. When they stopped at the military watchtower near Nabi Saleh, he understood that he had been taken by Israeli undercover forces.

There, the military commander in charge of the area of Nabi Saleh and nearby Beit Rima, told his captors to keep him. “He said I would not be going home,” Muhammad recalled.

He was then transported to an Israeli military base near the town of Aboud. “They beat me everywhere, very hard,” Muhammad said. “They were wearing boots, they hit me on my back, my hands, my head.”

The Israeli army handed him over to Palestinian security forces at night, after Muhammad’s family managed to convey to the army that the boy needed to take his medicine.

Scarred for life

Muhammad is still recovering from a head injury he sustained in December last year when an Israeli soldier shot him in the face with a rubber-coated steel bullet in protests following the announcement of the US embassy move to Jerusalem.

In the six-hour operation that followed the injury, the surgeons had to remove a large part of his skull to relieve pressure on the brain.

This was the third time the army has detained Muhammad. He was first taken from his home at the age of 13 and served a three-month prison sentence. The Israelis then arrested him again in a night raid in February, just two months after his injury and still awaiting restorative surgery.

“Even if Muhammad is never arrested again, he will be alert every second of his life. Always ready to be taken again,” Murad Amro from the Palestinian Counseling Center in Ramallah explained. “It is the military’s way of teaching children a lesson, inflicting a sort of psychosocial handicap from a young age.”

Addameer, the prisoners rights group, reports that as of April 2018, Israel is holding more than 300 Palestinian children, of whom 65 are under the age of 16.

Statistics gathered by Defense for Children International Palestine find that in 2017, almost 75 percent of detained children reported physical violence during arrest.

Several members of the extended Tamimi family have been detained in the recent past. The most high profile of them is Muhammad’s cousin Ahed Tamimi, who was sentenced to eight months imprisonment in March.

Ahed, then aged 16, was arrested after she confronted Israeli soldiers outside her home in Nabi Saleh last December. The confrontation occurred on the same day that Muhammad was shot in the head.

Murad Amro said that the way a child reacts to the trauma of arrest can vary. The reaction is connected to a number of factors, like socioeconomic background, family dynamics and predisposition.

“However, we generally observe that childhood detention has a severe impact on the functioning of a child and family structure,” Amro explained. “A child after detention is not the same child.”

Deliberate psychological abuse

Samah Jabr is a Palestinian psychiatrist and psychotherapist and an author of the book Derrière les fronts (Behind the Fronts), which deals with the military occupation’s impact on mental health in Palestine.

“Adolescence in itself is a dangerous place,” she told The Electronic Intifada.

Adolescents, she said, are more impulsive. They tend to engage in more high risk activities than adults. In Palestine, those activities are likely to involve confrontations with soldiers “especially because soldiers provoke children,” Jabr added.

“Recently, the Israelis reduced the age of responsibility to 12,” she said, meaning that children at a vulnerable and impulsive age are treated as adults in Israeli military courts.

During every stage of detention, the child experiences a number of shocks. The first is to be taken from home by soldiers and to see that parents are powerless in front of the Israeli military.

“Your parents are the ones that discipline you, try to control your behavior and claim to protect you,” Jabr said. “It is a shock for the child to see that when there is a real need for protection, the parents are helpless.”

Then children often endure severe abuse on the way to the interrogation center. “The child is beaten, humiliated, sometimes bitten by dogs, sometimes soldiers piss on him or her,” Jabr said.

Interrogators also attempt to make children believe that society has betrayed them, Jabr said, for instance by saying a child’s name was given to soldiers by friends or classmates. At the same time, interrogators might try to induce guilt by threatening to demolish the home or harass the child’s siblings.

“Sometimes, they bring belongings from home to the interrogation, just to show the child their ability to reach family members,” Jabr said.

Such psychological pressure pushes many children to sign confessions in Hebrew they do not understand.

When Muhammad Tamimi was arrested last February, he signed a confession within hours of his arrest, stating that his injury was not caused by a bullet but a bike accident. The statement was patently signed under duress and he later told journalists that the soldiers beat him into confession.

Learned helplessness

The psychological pain does not end after release. When a child returns home from prison, there are celebrations. But Jabr explained that children themselves can suffer from the ambivalence of the experience.

“There is a tendency to amplify the child’s sacrifice – to glorify him or her as a hero,” Jabr said. “Meaning there is no space for the child to talk about the pain and shame. Children often feel guilty because they confessed or gave names.”

“The parents themselves also feel guilty, because they could not prevent what happened,” Jabr said. “The whole family system is disturbed by the experience.”

Jabr also emphasized that every child reacts differently to detention. Not all children display symptoms of trauma, and there are countless psychosocial factors at play.

“Some become submissive,” Jabr explained, “others will want to identify with the physically stronger group, the soldiers. Others will be very angry and engage in even more high risk activities. It is the last group that is more likely to end up in prison again.”

Jabr explained that children can come out of prison suspicious of others, as they were told by interrogators that society betrayed them.

The children have learned from the experience that the structures around them cannot protect them. Many find it hard to adapt again and obey social norms and many drop out of school after detention.

For his part, Muhammad puts up a brave front. After three arrests, he is not scared anymore, he told The Electronic Intifada.

His mother, Imtithal Tamimi, tells a slightly different story. Sunday night, for instance, he slept in his older brother’s bed.

“He is afraid to sleep alone,” she said.

Annelies Verbeek is a Belgian journalist based in Ramallah


========================================================


As I've said, it's no wonder that the Palestinians - imprisoned, dispossessed, victimised, persecuted, brutalised - are so desperate and filled with hate. Who wouldn't be? Hamas, deplorable as they seem, are not a cause of this conflict, they are a symptom.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 02 Jun 2018, 08:07

Jimbo. An Opinion Piece from the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz:

They're Right. If Palestinians in Gaza Don't Shoot, No One Listens

They are the last fighters against the Israeli occupation. While the occupied West Bank behaves like it's given up, Gaza is not giving up

Gideon Levy Jun 01, 2018

We have to say it simply and honestly: They’re right. They have no choice but to fight for their freedom with their bodies, their property, their weapons and their blood. They have no choice, except for the Qassam and the mortar. There is no way open to them except for violence or surrender. They have no way of breaching the fences that pen them in without using force, and their force is primitive and pathetic, almost touching.

A people that is fighting for its freedom with kites, tunnels, mirrors, tires, scissors, incendiary devices, mortar shells and Qassam rockets, against one of the most sophisticated war machines in the world, is a people without hope. But the only way they can change their situation is with their pathetic weapons.

When they’re quiet, Israel and the world take no interest in their fate. Only the Qassam restores awareness of their disaster. When do we hear about Gaza in Israel? Only when Gaza is shooting. That’s why they have no choice but to shoot. That’s why their shooting is justified, even if it criminally harms innocent civilians, instills fear and terror in the residents of the south and is intolerable to Israel, and rightly so.

They have no weapons that are more precise, and therefore it’s also impossible to blame them for harming civilians: Most of their mortars fall in open areas, although that is not their intention either. It’s hard to blame them for hitting an empty kindergarten: They would certainly prefer precise weapons that aim at military targets, like those that Israel has, which incidentally harm far more children.


It’s clear that their violence is cruel, like any violence. But what choice do they have? Every hesitant attempt they make to take a different path – a truce, a change in leadership or in their political positions – immediately encounters automatic Israeli dismissal and rejection. Israel believes them only when they shoot. After all, there’s a clear control group: the West Bank. There’s no Hamas there and no Qassam, there are barely any vestiges of terror, and what good did that do Mahmoud Abbas and his people?

They’re right, because after all the diversions and deceptions and lies of Israeli propaganda, nothing can blur the fact that they have been thrown into a huge cage for the rest of their lives. An unbelievable siege, 11 years without respite, which is the greatest war crime in this arena. No propaganda can conceal their identity – their past, their present and their future. Most of them live in the Gaza Strip because Israel made them refugees. Israel expelled their forefathers from their villages and their land. Others fled for fear of Israel, and afterwards were not allowed to return – a crime no less serous than the expulsion.

All their villages were destroyed. They lived for 20 years under Egyptian rule, and another 50 years under Israeli occupation, which never stopped treating them cruelly in so many ways. When Israel left Gaza for its own purposes, it imposed a siege on them, and their fate became even worse. They haven’t been free for a single day in their lives. Nor is there any sign of hope that they will be. Not even the children. They live on one of the most crowded pieces of land in the world, which the United Nations has declared will be unfit for human habitation in another year and a half. Isn’t that enough for them to deserve support?

They are the last fighters against the Israeli occupation. While most of the occupied West Bank behaves like it’s given up, Gaza is not giving up. They were always more determined and daring than their brothers in the West Bank, maybe because of their greater suffering. There isn’t a single Israel who can imagine his or her life in Gaza. The meaning of growing up into their reality. Everything has already been said about that, and nobody gets upset. They have a harsh, undemocratic government, but Israel cannot cast the blame on Hamas. In the West Bank there’s a far more moderate government, and Israel is doing nothing to end the occupation there.

In recent weeks they buried 118 people – which, relative to the size of the population, is like 500 dead for us, and they will never stop fighting. They’re right, too.


Gideon Levy

Haaretz Correspondent
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 02 Jun 2018, 08:12

Meanwhile, in America:

U.S. Vetoes UN 'Grossly One-sided View' Resolution on Gaza

'The terrorist group Hamas bares primary responsibility for the awful living conditions in Gaza,' Nikki Haley said ahead of the vote.

:roll: :cry: :(
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 02 Jun 2018, 08:20

A must-see report.

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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Belle Lettre » 02 Jun 2018, 09:56

A young paramedic was shot dead yesterday as she ran towards casualties near the fence, despite being in white uniform and holding up her arms.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Jimbo » 02 Jun 2018, 11:46

With my pro-Israel biases, while I think the reports posted above are probably true, I can't bring myself to watch. All the anti-America videos I watch, no problem, but when it's my ox being gored I don't want to know. I am admitting this as a way to show how even the most open minded of us can shut out what we don't want to hear, explaining perhaps how, maybe, when I post a conspiracy video a usually open-minded person like YOU! won't deign to watch. You just don't want to know.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Eddie Shah environment » 02 Jun 2018, 12:12

You don't think it might be that we're tired of you mindlessly, relentlessly presenting the 'alternate view' as if it were the only truth every single fucking time?
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