I hear some people died in Gaza

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 02:22

Copehead wrote:
2. The majority of the Palestinians killed weren't unarmed civilians, they were Hamas operatives. I thought you were in favour of fighting fascists?


You lie very casually don't you? What the fuck is a Hamas operative?

I notice you didn't argue with unarmed.

Hand waving away a massacre, a new low even for you.


Oh give over, there were armed Hamas terrorists among the civilians, it's an established tactic of Hamas, using human shields. There are documented instances of Hamas Al Qassam fighters firing on IDF soldiers, and of Palestinians trying to use IEDs to breach the fence. Hamas politicians are on record exhorting their people to bring guns and knives hidden under their clothes, to tear down the fence, and to kidnap Israeli civilians and IDF soldiers.

There are Israeli Kibbutzim within a couple of kilometres of the fence. If the fence had been breached and tens of thousands of Palestinians had crossed it there would undoubtedly have been kidnappings and killings of Israelis. What were the IDF supposed to do? What military force of any country would allow aggressive protests of tens of thousands of people including known armed terrorists near their border, threatening their civilians?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 02:28

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:
2. The majority of the Palestinians killed weren't unarmed civilians, they were Hamas operatives. I thought you were in favour of fighting fascists?


You lie very casually don't you? What the fuck is a Hamas operative?

I notice you didn't argue with unarmed.

Hand waving away a massacre, a new low even for you.


Oh give over, there were armed Hamas terrorists among the civilians, it's an established tactic of Hamas, using human shields. There are documented instances of Hamas Al Qassam fighters firing on IDF soldiers, and of Palestinians trying to use IEDs to breach the fence. Hamas politicians are on record exhorting their people to bring guns and knives hidden under their clothes, to tear down the fence, and to kidnap Israeli civilians and IDF soldiers.

There are Israeli Kibbutzim within a couple of kilometres of the fence. If the fence had been breached and tens of thousands of Palestinians had crossed it there would undoubtedly have been kidnappings and killings of Israelis. What were the IDF supposed to do? What military force of any country would allow aggressive protests of tens of thousands of people including known armed terrorists near their border, threatening their civilians?


Perhaps you can tell us how many Israeli soldiers were wounded or killed during this terrible confrontation with armed terrorists?

No?

You seem to be happy with thousands of unarmed civilians being shot by snipers in bunkers for simply walking towards a prison wall.


As I said, hand waving away a massacre, a new low even for you.
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next

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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Jimbo » 29 May 2018, 03:05

Copehead wrote:
Perhaps you can tell us how many Israeli soldiers were wounded or killed during this terrible confrontation with armed terrorists?



I've never understood this logic. Must there be casualty parity in conflict? Sounds like politically correct b.s.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 03:24

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Perhaps you can tell us how many Israeli soldiers were wounded or killed during this terrible confrontation with armed terrorists?



I've never understood this logic. Must there be casualty parity in conflict? Sounds like politically correct b.s.


Doesn't need to be parity but 2000:0 suggests that it wasn't an armed conflict it was a bloody massacre.

A sniper shot dead a man in a wheel chair, is that politically correct b.s. or murder Jimbo?
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next

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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Deebank » 29 May 2018, 08:33

That wasn’t a man in a wheelchair that was a Hamas armoured division!
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 10:58

Insouciant Western People wrote:
You make a good case, by proxy. Labour should absolutely have booted out Kaufman.


:roll: You're becoming a parody of yourself, Nick.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 11:01

Copehead wrote:
Hand waving away a massacre, a new low even for you.


Indeed.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 11:39

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

Breaking the Silence is an organization of veteran combatants who have served in the Israeli military since the start of the Second Intifada and have taken it upon themselves to expose the Israeli public to the reality of everyday life in the Occupied Territories. We endeavor to stimulate public debate about the price paid for a reality in which young soldiers face a civilian population on a daily basis, and are engaged in the control of that population’s everyday life. Our work aims to bring an end to the occupation.

Breaking the Silence is a nonprofit organization made up of veteran combatants who have served in the Israeli military since the start of the second intifada and have taken it upon themselves to expose the Israeli public to the reality of everyday life in the occupied territories. We endeavor to stimulate public debate about the price paid for a reality in which young soldiers face a civilian population on a daily basis and are engaged in the control of that population’s everyday life. Our work aims to bring an end to the occupation.

Soldiers who serve in the territories witness and participate in military actions that change them immensely. Cases of abuse toward Palestinians, looting and destruction of property have been the norm for years, but these incidents are still described officially as “extreme” and “unique” cases. Our testimonies portray a different – and much grimmer – picture, in which the deterioration of moral standards finds expression in the character of the military orders and rules of engagement that the state considers justified in the name of Israel’s security.

While this reality is well-known to Israeli soldiers and commanders, Israeli society in general continues to turn a blind eye and deny what is being done in its name. Discharged soldiers returning to civilian life discover the gap between the reality they encountered in the territories, and the silence about this reality they find at home. In order to resume civilian life, soldiers have to ignore what they have seen and done. We strive to make heard the voices of these soldiers, pushing Israeli society to face the reality it has created.

We collect and publish testimonies from soldiers who, like us, have served in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem since September 2000. To boost public awareness, we hold lectures, house meetings and other public events that bring to light the reality in the territories through the voices of former combatants. We also conduct tours in Hebron and the South Hebron Hills in the West Bank, with the aim of giving the Israeli public access to the reality that exists only minutes away from their own homes, yet is rarely portrayed in the media.

Founded in March 2004 by a group of soldiers who served in Hebron, Breaking the Silence has since acquired a special standing in the eyes of the Israeli public and in the media because of its unique role in giving voice to the experience of soldiers. To date, the organization has collected testimonies from more than 1,000 soldiers who represent all strata of Israeli society and cover nearly all units that operate in the territories.

All the testimonies we publish are meticulously researched, and all facts are cross-checked with additional eyewitnesses and/or the archives of other human rights organizations that are active in the field. Every soldier who gives a testimony to Breaking the Silence is well-aware of the aims of the organization and the interview. Most soldiers choose to remain anonymous, due to various pressures from military officials and society at large. Our first priority is to safeguard the soldiers who choose to testify to the public about their military service

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies

A sample testimony:

catalog number: 663065
Rank: Major
Unit: Infantry
Area: Northern Gaza strip
period: 2014

"There is one part [of the operation] that includes an ‘accompanying screen’ – the firing of artillery shells before the forces arrive. You notify the [Palestinian] residents, throw leaflets – whoever fled, fled – and then you fire. I’m talking about a pretty massive use of fire. The artillery, its purpose is to allow our forces to enter without being hurt. Any place that has been identified by intelligence, or is an open area, gets hit with artillery. But if you check to see how many open areas exist in Gaza, there aren’t so many. We’re talking now about artillery, but the air force attacked endlessly. There’s targeted fire, but what kind of collateral damage is caused by such targeted fire? The air force knows how to take down one house that’s inside a neighborhood, but that doesn’t mean all the houses around it don’t get damaged. It’s not like the houses in the [Gaza] Strip are all new and protected with bomb shelters. In the end, these houses get damaged again and again and again, until they collapse. According to intelligence reports and military communications, you’re talking about a situation in which all the houses are classified as some type of hostile location. Are all the houses really hostile locations? I don’t know. Is it really possible to isolate one house inside a neighborhood that’s just blocks upon blocks? I don’t know. I do know that the practical result was flattened areas where houses had once stood.

Did you see any ‘before and after’ aerial photos?

Sure. Neighborhoods erased. You know what joke was being told in the army at the time? The joke says that Palestinians only sing the chorus because they have no verses [houses] left (in Hebrew, the word for verse is the same as the word for house.)




No wonder they're so desperate that they're willing to march, unarmed, towards possible death. And yet still the propagandists spin it to make the Palestinians the aggressors.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby PENK » 29 May 2018, 11:51

Deebank wrote:That wasn’t a man in a wheelchair that was a Hamas armoured division!


I thought it was Quebec who used wheelchair assassins?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Geezee » 29 May 2018, 12:16

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:
2. The majority of the Palestinians killed weren't unarmed civilians, they were Hamas operatives. I thought you were in favour of fighting fascists?


You lie very casually don't you? What the fuck is a Hamas operative?

I notice you didn't argue with unarmed.

Hand waving away a massacre, a new low even for you.


Oh give over, there were armed Hamas terrorists among the civilians, it's an established tactic of Hamas, using human shields. There are documented instances of Hamas Al Qassam fighters firing on IDF soldiers, and of Palestinians trying to use IEDs to breach the fence. Hamas politicians are on record exhorting their people to bring guns and knives hidden under their clothes, to tear down the fence, and to kidnap Israeli civilians and IDF soldiers.

There are Israeli Kibbutzim within a couple of kilometres of the fence. If the fence had been breached and tens of thousands of Palestinians had crossed it there would undoubtedly have been kidnappings and killings of Israelis. What were the IDF supposed to do? What military force of any country would allow aggressive protests of tens of thousands of people including known armed terrorists near their border, threatening their civilians?



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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Goat Boy » 29 May 2018, 12:35

How many of those killed were confirmed as being members of Hamas?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 12:46

Goat Boy wrote:How many of those killed were confirmed as being members of Hamas?


50 of the 62. A further 3 were acknowledged as being members of Islamic Jihad.

I thought this was a cool-headed and sensible take on the whole thing: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/262329/gaza-media-explainer
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 May 2018, 12:54

Confirmed by who - the Israelis or the Palestinians?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Goat Boy » 29 May 2018, 13:00

Diamond Dog wrote:Confirmed by who - the Israelis or the Palestinians?


From what I read by a Hamas spokesman
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Belle Lettre » 29 May 2018, 13:56

I should think a goodly proportion would be since they were from Gaza. They remain entitled to protest without being shot in the head.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 14:13

An extract from "This Is How We Fought In Gaza" about Operation: Protective Edge:

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pd ... veEdge.pdf


Everyone - from the commander all
the way down - took dumps in pots,
out of some kind of operational
principle. Whatever


Unit: Infantry • Rank: First Sergeant •
Location: Northern Gaza Strip

I’m thinking about that poor family whose rooftop was turned into
a public bathroom by the entire company, what an awful thing.

What’s this story?

At some point you need to take a crap, and at first we weren’t
given the bags one stashes in one’s helmets, which are really
uncomfortable, so one of the guys found a plastic chair, a simple
classroom one, and unscrewed its seat, and that chair was moved
from one shaded place to another shaded place. The entire battalion
had diarrhea and was throwing up. How awful, I thought, it would
be to come back home and discover your bathroom is clogged and
half the pots in your kitchen have shit in them. Your entire roof is
covered in shit, and there’s shit in your garden.

People shat in pots?

Yes. There were lots of disputes among the commanders about
this. At a certain point we entered a house that had working
cooking gas. First thing everyone thought was, ‘Let’s make

ourselves some coffee.’ So then there
was a very, very heated argument among
the company commanders over whether
it was legitimate or not to use it. There
were some commanders who thought it
was legitimate to use their coffee pot if
we washed it afterwards. ‘I made a hole
in their wall and floor, so what, I’m not
going to make some coffee in their pot?’

So did you make coffee?

Yeah, and it was tasty. But the shitting inpots bit was very clear to everyone.
Therewere some assholes who were just like,“What, I don’t like
shitting in a helmet.”So they just shat in pots.

There were very few houses that had
running water in them, and in most houses there, what you have
are squat toilets. But once in a while you would get to a house
with a real [seated] toilet, which is a whole other world, proper
hospitality... There was no running water the entire time we were in
Beit Hanoun.

There were some houses where I think the residents
had prepared for the situation in advance – bathtubs filled with
water and all kinds of things like that. The residents there saved
up water because they knew what was coming. But in most
houses the sewage system didn’t work and it usually overflowed
very quickly. When you shit in the toilet it stays there, the water
doesn’t go down. That’s on the one hand. But then on the other,
if there is a toilet there – why shouldn’t I shit in it? So the simple
soldiers, like good soldiers, found the ‘middle path’ themselves;
they got their hands on some laundry detergent and whoever
finished taking a dump would throw a handful on it. Eventually
I figured out that there are some battles where it’s you fighting a
wall. You need to decide where you’re going to invest your energy,
with regard to discipline. Successfully upholding a routine of
discipline within the platoon, while in a combat situation, is a very
difficult, complicated thing. It was clear to me that I couldn’t win
everything. If I wasn’t going to discipline soldiers, then besides
creating a bad atmosphere and frustration for both them and
me, I wouldn’t get much accomplished. So I would tell them my
opinion, and explain what I thought wasn’t OK, and ultimately
I let each man decide for himself, whether he sees it as OK or
not.

I know there was one platoon where everyone – from the
commander all the way down – took dumps in pots, out of some
kind of operational principle. Whatever.



The IDF routinely commandeer Palestinian houses, locking the family into a single room for hours or even days on end whilst the soldiers settle in, watch tv and eat and drink all the food. They often deliberately and spitefully wreck the houses they commandeer, pissing onto the sofas and such like. And, of course, they routinely shoot and kill Palestinians, many of them children, for throwing stones.

Really, is it any wonder that some of them sign up to Hamas?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Deebank » 29 May 2018, 14:16

Clearly the Hamas youth and disabled wings were well represented.

It makes me sick that the uk sells Israel (at least some of) its sniper rifles and ammunition.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 14:18

Anshel Pfeffer wrote a perceptive and as it turned out, prophetic piece in Haaretz in early April, a few weeks before the violence escalated.


The large majority of the nearly 30,000 Palestinian protesters was groups of families who remained around 500 meters from the fence, around the tents that had been pitched on high ground, out of harm’s way. Some of them ventured as far as the dirt road, just outside the 300-meter range. That was the “peaceful demonstration.” But the narrative of a non-violent event eroded closer to the border.

Much smaller groups consisting mainly of young men, some throwing stones and rolling burning tires, pushed forward toward the fence. These were met mainly by tear gas grenades dropped from mini-drones. And every few minutes, individuals darted forward to reach the fence and other border installations, trying to wreck them or set them alight, and were hit by sniper fire.

In the first hours of the clashes, as the army assessed the situation, it was clear that there were not going to be masses at the fence, but there would still be plenty of violence. “Hamas want to boost the number of casualties,” one senior IDF general told me, “but they’re not going to go all the way either. They’re building it up to peak on May 15.” At the time, two deaths had been reported.

No one had any doubt that whoever went into the zone 200 to 300 meters from the fence would get hurt. Badly. The IDF snipers had orders to aim for ankles, and only shoot to kill at individuals with weapons. How closely they all adhered to the orders is unclear. Footage from the scene shows that in at least a handful of cases, Palestinians were also shot when trying to run out of the buffer zone, and there are those who claim to have been shot farther away. But it was clear that even if Israeli soldiers scrupulously stuck to the rules of engagement, with the policy of firing at anyone in the zone, the number of casualties would be a result of how many tried to get into it.



The full piece is at https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/with-riots-and-live-fire-gaza-just-went-25-years-back-in-time-1.5962737
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 May 2018, 14:21

And that's justification of the Israeli position, in your eyes?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 29 May 2018, 14:30

Diamond Dog wrote:And that's justification of the Israeli position, in your eyes?


The IDF snipers had orders to aim for ankles, and only shoot to kill at individuals with weapons. How closely they all adhered to the orders is unclear. Footage from the scene shows that in at least a handful of cases, Palestinians were also shot when trying to run out of the buffer zone, and there are those who claim to have been shot farther away.


This bit in particular is stomach-churning in its indifference. These people are living in something much worse than a prison. At least in a prison there is running water, proper shelter, electricity and an end in sight.

Desperate people do desperate things. Such as walk, unarmed, towards Israeli snipers.
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