I hear some people died in Gaza

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Jimbo » 15 May 2018, 08:49

Just died. According to CNN, that is. “Death toll rises to at least 52 people during clashes along the border fence between Israel and Gaza, Palestinian officials say. More than 2,400 people have been injured.”

As a nominal supporter of Israel I'd be hypocritical of me to not come out for truth as I do when it comes to the truth about Syria, Ukraine, Russia, 9/11, all the critical and dangerous world shaking events which I fear, if not dealt with truthfully, will ultimately kill us all. The truth in Israel, re the Gaza protests, is that the Israeli government and army are responding as cruelly as can be. I don't like to read the names Israel is called in other blogs, for we know how Israel is treated online in the alternative media, especially in the comments, but, man of man, this is fucked up and I know it's especially fucked up because Israel's actions are backed by the US and Trump and the story softened up by the lying CIA controlled media.

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/05/14/u ... -massacre/
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Belle Lettre » 15 May 2018, 09:11

There isn't really anything to discuss, one need only look. I'm so saddened and have nothing to say.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 May 2018, 09:13

So Trump isn't the prodigal son this week, Jimbo? Aha. Duly noted.

What happened yesterday (and leading up to it and continuing on) is state sponsored murder.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 May 2018, 09:18

From the BBC (who have been demonstrating a remarkably strong Pro-Israeli bias themselves) :

What has the international reaction been?

There has been fierce condemnation from some countries, but Israel's key ally, the US, has backed it:

White House spokesman Raj Shah said: "The responsibility for these tragic deaths rests squarely with Hamas... Hamas is intentionally and cynically provoking this response"
Kuwait drafted a UN Security Council statement calling for an independent inquiry into the violence - and expressing "outrage and sorrow" - but this was blocked by the US
The UK said "the large volume of live fire is extremely concerning" but said protests must be peaceful
Germany said Israel had the right to defend itself but should do so proportionately
France's President Emmanuel Macron condemned violence by the Israeli military
Turkey said the US shared responsibility with Israel for a "vile massacre" and that it was recalling its ambassadors from both countries
One of the strongest statements came from UN human rights chief Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein, who condemned the "shocking killing of dozens, injury of hundreds by Israeli live fire"
South Africa also recalled its ambassador to Israel, condemning "the indiscriminate and grave manner of the latest Israeli attack"
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 15 May 2018, 12:16

Diamond Dog wrote:So Trump isn't the prodigal son this week, Jimbo? Aha. Duly noted.

What happened yesterday (and leading up to it and continuing on) is state sponsored murder.


Fully agree.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Jimbo » 15 May 2018, 12:37

If, however, you knew in advance they would shoot live ammo at you would you go to the demonstration? Not saying the Palestinians don't have a cause but that's dedication above and beyond reasonableness IMO.

It's too bad more countries aren't withdrawing their ambassadors. Or the US has everybody's balls in a vice. Look how Ecuador is going to give up Assange. And they'll keep their Israeli embassy open.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 May 2018, 14:08

Jimbo wrote:If, however, you knew in advance they would shoot live ammo at you would you go to the demonstration? Not saying the Palestinians don't have a cause but that's dedication above and beyond reasonableness IMO.


They knew this in advance?

Or are you suggesting they should know it and, therefore, not protest? Like, y'know, be intimidated into not protesting?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Jimbo » 15 May 2018, 14:35

Diamond Dog wrote:
Jimbo wrote:If, however, you knew in advance they would shoot live ammo at you would you go to the demonstration? Not saying the Palestinians don't have a cause but that's dedication above and beyond reasonableness IMO.


They knew this in advance?

Or are you suggesting they should know it and, therefore, not protest? Like, y'know, be intimidated into not protesting?


I had heard - I can't remember where - that the IDF warned them not to approach the fence or they'd be shot. And even if not warned, when the shooting started, well, if I were there, I think I'd run away.

Of course they could protest but if tearing down the border fence was a part of the plan, well, as i read more it seems the Israelis rationale was to stop them from getting to the fence. Once through - if there was a way to tear it open - they'd - who knows what they'd do. Israelis thought they'd rampage. The Israelis possibly thought that shooting a few protesters at the start would scatter them. Instead they seemed emboldened. And now they're martyrs for the cause.

A radical and humble political plan is needed for both sides. Violence isn't working. It does buy Israel some time and security but at what cost? I was thrilled to see Arafat and Rabin shake hands, Then Rabin was assassinated. Another peacemaker gets it? That buzzes my Jimbo.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 May 2018, 15:03

Just so I have this right - the Palestinians were warned they would be shot at if they approached the fence (but, conveniently, you can't remember where you read that- so that itself is open to conjecture) therefore they shouldn't have done so... even if there is no internationally recognised law that a) suggests they should comply or b) suggests Israel has the right to assassinate unarmed citizens or c) has the right to tell people they are going to assassinate them for acting in a lawful manner?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Robert » 15 May 2018, 15:49

Not that this makes Israel´s violence less condemnable but for the record, they did warn:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50511.html


Israeli air force drones have dropped thousands of leaflets over the Gaza Strip warning Palestinians taking part in protests called by Hamas against the US’ embassy move to Jerusalem will put their lives in danger.


The order given to soldiers is to prevent Palestinians from crossing into Israel at any price, including direct live fire.

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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 May 2018, 15:55

You're right, it doesn't.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby The Prof » 15 May 2018, 20:53

Jimbo wrote:I had heard - I can't remember where - that the IDF warned them not to approach the fence or they'd be shot. And even if not warned, when the shooting started, well, if I were there, I think I'd run away.


Desperate people do desperate things.
Their electric is intermittent There's precious little fresh water. Their home is an open prison and the world outside doesn't seem to listen or care. What have they got left to live for?

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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 15 May 2018, 22:37

Robert wrote:Not that this makes Israel´s violence less condemnable but for the record, they did warn:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 50511.html


Israeli air force drones have dropped thousands of leaflets over the Gaza Strip warning Palestinians taking part in protests called by Hamas against the US’ embassy move to Jerusalem will put their lives in danger.


The order given to soldiers is to prevent Palestinians from crossing into Israel at any price, including direct live fire.


One wonders what the world would do if Hamas warned Israelis that it was going to rain down powerful new rockets on Tel Aviv and did so killing 50 civilians.

Actually one doesn't one knows exactly what would happen.

In Syria be decided to bomb the shit out of the place because of unverified reports of a chemical weapon attack.

Now calls for the Israelis to be a bit more restrained when they are murdering unarmed civilians.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby echolalia » 16 May 2018, 10:40

The Prof wrote:Desperate people do desperate things.
Their electric is intermittent There's precious little fresh water. Their home is an open prison and the world outside doesn't seem to listen or care. What have they got left to live for?

I do occasional free work for a couple of aid organizations that work in Gaza. What’s most shocking about the Israeli blockade is the sheer nastiness of it. It isn’t just medical supplies they prevent from entering the territory (supplies which are often required to treat the wounds inflicted by Israeli soldiers with their cowardly shooting of unarmed children), it’s also everyday stuff we take for granted, like toiletries and tampons and condoms. It seems the Israelis aren’t content to keep people imprisoned but also want to deprive them of their dignity in every way possible.

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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 28 May 2018, 16:48

https://medium.com/@TonyGreenstein/naomi-wolf-and-anti-semitisms-mystification-eee49197aa9a

Tony Greenstein on the weaponisation of anti-Semitism by the Israeli far right.
Also posted in Labour Party thread but probably a better fit here.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Butch Manly » 28 May 2018, 17:59

Peter Wilby, this week in the NS:

"Ken Livingstone’s departure from the Labour Party – by resigning ahead of almost certain expulsion for claiming that Hitler supported Zionism – prompts me to wonder whether Gerald Kaufman, who died in 2017, could still be a member. A Labour MP for 46 years and finally father – oldest member – of the House, he shadowed two of the great offices of state (Home and Foreign) under Neil Kinnock.

He was a fierce and consistent critic of Israel who supported economic sanctions, called it a “pariah state”, and accused its government of “ruthlessly and cynically” exploiting Gentiles’ guilt over the Holocaust to justify the “murder of Palestinians”. When an Israeli army spokeswoman described most of the Palestinians killed during the Gaza war of 2009 as “militants”, he called it “the reply of a Nazi”. Worse still, he said “Jewish money, Jewish donations” biased the Conservatives in Israel’s favour and that in Jerusalem the Israelis were “executing” Palestinians and then fabricating tales of “attempted stabbings” as justification.


Kaufman, whose parents were Polish Jews and whose grandmother was killed by the Nazis, once said he was himself a target for anti-Semitism. But, he added, “I get much more hate mail from Jews.” Anti-Semites had never threatened him with violence but Jews had, “even when I was at worship in the synagogue”.

Almost nothing said by those Labour members now accused of anti-Semitism was not said in the past by Kaufman. Just about the only thing he didn’t say was that Hitler was a Zionist."
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:31

Vic Snazell-Sprey wrote:Peter Wilby, this week in the NS:

"Ken Livingstone’s departure from the Labour Party – by resigning ahead of almost certain expulsion for claiming that Hitler supported Zionism – prompts me to wonder whether Gerald Kaufman, who died in 2017, could still be a member. A Labour MP for 46 years and finally father – oldest member – of the House, he shadowed two of the great offices of state (Home and Foreign) under Neil Kinnock.

He was a fierce and consistent critic of Israel who supported economic sanctions, called it a “pariah state”, and accused its government of “ruthlessly and cynically” exploiting Gentiles’ guilt over the Holocaust to justify the “murder of Palestinians”. When an Israeli army spokeswoman described most of the Palestinians killed during the Gaza war of 2009 as “militants”, he called it “the reply of a Nazi”. Worse still, he said “Jewish money, Jewish donations” biased the Conservatives in Israel’s favour and that in Jerusalem the Israelis were “executing” Palestinians and then fabricating tales of “attempted stabbings” as justification.


Kaufman, whose parents were Polish Jews and whose grandmother was killed by the Nazis, once said he was himself a target for anti-Semitism. But, he added, “I get much more hate mail from Jews.” Anti-Semites had never threatened him with violence but Jews had, “even when I was at worship in the synagogue”.

Almost nothing said by those Labour members now accused of anti-Semitism was not said in the past by Kaufman. Just about the only thing he didn’t say was that Hitler was a Zionist."


You make a good case, by proxy. Labour should absolutely have booted out Kaufman.
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:37

Copehead wrote:In Syria we decided to bomb the shit out of the place because of unverified reports of a chemical weapon attack.

Now calls for the Israelis to be a bit more restrained when they are murdering unarmed civilians.


1. We didn't 'bomb the shit' out of Syria. The RAF accomplished targeted attacks on chemical weapons facilities. There have been no reported casualties.

2. The majority of the Palestinians killed weren't unarmed civilians, they were Hamas operatives. I thought you were in favour of fighting fascists?
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 01:48

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Vic Snazell-Sprey wrote:Peter Wilby, this week in the NS:

"Ken Livingstone’s departure from the Labour Party – by resigning ahead of almost certain expulsion for claiming that Hitler supported Zionism – prompts me to wonder whether Gerald Kaufman, who died in 2017, could still be a member. A Labour MP for 46 years and finally father – oldest member – of the House, he shadowed two of the great offices of state (Home and Foreign) under Neil Kinnock.

He was a fierce and consistent critic of Israel who supported economic sanctions, called it a “pariah state”, and accused its government of “ruthlessly and cynically” exploiting Gentiles’ guilt over the Holocaust to justify the “murder of Palestinians”. When an Israeli army spokeswoman described most of the Palestinians killed during the Gaza war of 2009 as “militants”, he called it “the reply of a Nazi”. Worse still, he said “Jewish money, Jewish donations” biased the Conservatives in Israel’s favour and that in Jerusalem the Israelis were “executing” Palestinians and then fabricating tales of “attempted stabbings” as justification.


Kaufman, whose parents were Polish Jews and whose grandmother was killed by the Nazis, once said he was himself a target for anti-Semitism. But, he added, “I get much more hate mail from Jews.” Anti-Semites had never threatened him with violence but Jews had, “even when I was at worship in the synagogue”.

Almost nothing said by those Labour members now accused of anti-Semitism was not said in the past by Kaufman. Just about the only thing he didn’t say was that Hitler was a Zionist."


You make a good case, by proxy. Labour should absolutely have booted out Kaufman.


:lol:

Why not, booting out Jews for anti-Semitism seems to be a thing now
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Re: I hear some people died in Gaza

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 01:52

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:In Syria we decided to bomb the shit out of the place because of unverified reports of a chemical weapon attack.

Now calls for the Israelis to be a bit more restrained when they are murdering unarmed civilians.


1. We didn't 'bomb the shit' out of Syria. The RAF accomplished targeted attacks on chemical weapons facilities. There have been no reported casualties.


That's because we had to tell the Russians what empty warehouses we were going to launch multi-million pound munitions at before hand

That showed them!

2. The majority of the Palestinians killed weren't unarmed civilians, they were Hamas operatives. I thought you were in favour of fighting fascists?


You lie very casually don't you? What the fuck is a Hamas operative?

I notice you didn't argue with unarmed.

Hand waving away a massacre, a new low even for you.
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