Before Jordan Peterson.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Jimbo
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 14:28

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:So Peterson believes that as policy, we need to presume low IQ’s on the part of people in low wage jobs and act accordingly?

Even you ought to be able to smell what utter horseshit that is.


If you don't think there are actual stupid people in the world who need and deserve help then you are truly a heartless ignoramus.

FYI, I am no expert on IQ but I was a public junior high teacher of gifted kids in my short, real (not ESL) teaching career. To get into the program the kids needed an IQ score of 120 or above. They were all sharp kids from various backgrounds and they all took the same test. I believe IQ scores do reflect intelligence, sharpness, wittiness, problem solving ability - what I call sharp. I'll bet you have a pretty high IQ, not 120 but higher than the average which is 100 FYI.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Jun 2018, 14:37

Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:So Peterson believes that as policy, we need to presume low IQ’s on the part of people in low wage jobs and act accordingly?

Even you ought to be able to smell what utter horseshit that is.


If you don't think there are actual stupid people in the world who need and deserve help then you are truly a heartless ignoramus.


I’m absolutely sure there are stupid people in this world - and yes, my heart goes out to you.

But please explain to me how this is supposed to work on a public policy level? Are you seriously endorsing the idea that city planners ought to avoid the use of machinery on the basis that some workers in low wage jobs may not have the mental capacity to operate them?

Maybe you lack the mental capacity to see why this is an absurd suggestion? If so...back to Jimmy Dore for you!
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 14:56

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:So Peterson believes that as policy, we need to presume low IQ’s on the part of people in low wage jobs and act accordingly?

Even you ought to be able to smell what utter horseshit that is.


If you don't think there are actual stupid people in the world who need and deserve help then you are truly a heartless ignoramus.


I’m absolutely sure there are stupid people in this world - and yes, my heart goes out to you.

But please explain to me how this is supposed to work on a public policy level? Are you seriously endorsing the idea that city planners ought to avoid the use of machinery on the basis that some workers in low wage jobs may not have the mental capacity to operate them?

Maybe you lack the mental capacity to see why this is an absurd suggestion? If so...back to Jimmy Dore for you!


What Peterson said in his talk was as society gets more computerized good menial jobs are lessening and the well paying jobs need more and more brainpower. The lower intellect folk are left holding the short end of the stick. Perhaps a guaranteed income is the solution he imagines but then balks knowing how - as a psychologist - what unemployed impulsive types will do with the money, specifically regarding drink and drugs. What he is proposing is for society, the government, BIG BROTHER to come up with some way to make life more fulfilling by creating jobs for dummies like me.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Jun 2018, 15:24

His whole argument is based on the fallacy that low wage jobs are “stupid” jobs - and that people who work for low wages are stupider than those with higher paying jobs.

Their are anecdotal examples where that can be true. But it isn’t always.

Most people in lower wage work do the jobs they do due to lack of opportunity. In the US, generally a college degree (often advanced degree) stands between a person and a higher wage job. But getting a degree isn’t just a matter of brain power. You also need the money to go, or you need scholarships and other assistance. Most importantly, you need the luxury of 4+ years in which nobody requires a paycheck from you.

For a lot of people, their life circumstances don’t allow for that. Meanwhile a child of the same or lower IQ from a higher class strata might have parents who have been saving for their child’s education since birth. That kid may be slightly dim, but he’ll get a degree and he’ll end up in a “smart” job.

Ultimately Peterson conflates IQ with class in a way that is unforgivable for a serious scholar. You can be excused for falling for it. Societal accommodations ought to be made.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 12 Jun 2018, 16:12

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote:
If Ashkenazi Jews are all predisposed to do well on IQ tests because of genetics than that is a racial bias.



"All"? Now that's racial. Peterson never said all. He said a larger statistical number of AJs have higher than average IQs.


Which would be a racial bias if it were genetic in origin, but it isn't unless you think they have gone from one of the lowest scoring groups on US IQ tests to one of the highest scoring in under 100 years through evolution.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 12 Jun 2018, 19:35

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
In particular, Peterson’s agenda (that public policy should be built around these differences in IQ) is just wrongheaded. Fuck him.

Oh....and fuck IQ too. At best, it is an incomplete measurement. At worst, a completely useless one. It doesn’t measure creativity or social and emotional intelligence. It doesn’t account for environmental factors, nutrition, or class. In short...it measures what it measures and leaves a whole lot out of the equation.

People who use IQ as a tool to make political arguments should be regarded as fools and/or demagogues.


I'm not convinced he has this agenda. Peterson does not write policy. He doesn't advise on policy. I've yet to see him use IQ as a tool to make a political argument.

He is full of shit on some points and right on others. But he is a commentator, and not trying to do any more. He kowtows to certain social libertarian views because he likes the attention. But I hope you're not taking Jimbo's or Copey's word on "what he's saying." Because Jimbo is filtering it through his Jimbo world and Copehead hasn't heard it.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Jun 2018, 22:47

No. I’ve been listening to Peterson. He is most definitely advocating for public policy based on this shit.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 12 Jun 2018, 22:59

Well, I disagree based on what I've heard. Which is in the context of forums that he's been invited to. And if he's trying to affect public policy, he's sure going about it the wrong way.
sloopjohnc wrote:Aslan has some good credenitals - got his BA from Santa Clara, a Jesuit school and his Masters from Harvard and PhD from Santa Barbara, a surfing school.


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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 12 Jun 2018, 23:48

I think it's like that whole "Iron John" thing . He is accumulating a cult.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 12 Jun 2018, 23:57

sneelock wrote:I think it's like that whole "Iron John" thing . He is accumulating a cult.


That crossed my mind too.

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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 13 Jun 2018, 00:01

Was there an "Iron John" cult? What became of it? Roving bands of naked drummers?
sloopjohnc wrote:Aslan has some good credenitals - got his BA from Santa Clara, a Jesuit school and his Masters from Harvard and PhD from Santa Barbara, a surfing school.


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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 13 Jun 2018, 00:05

If I tell you, I’ll have to kill you with my drum.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 13 Jun 2018, 00:06

sneelock wrote:If I tell you, I’ll have to kill you with my drum.


:lol:

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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 13 Jun 2018, 00:08

toomanyhatz wrote:Was there an "Iron John" cult? What became of it? Roving bands of naked drummers?


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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Jun 2018, 15:57

toomanyhatz wrote:Well, I disagree based on what I've heard. Which is in the context of forums that he's been invited to. And if he's trying to affect public policy, he's sure going about it the wrong way.


I think you are ignoring the clear political bent of his arguments. Take his famed use of lobster society. What he’s attempting to argue is that nature has essentially ordained that the smart and the strong and the dominant have a natural claim on superiority in our society. He uses IQ to argue that it is just an inconvenient truth that smarter people are suited for a high position in the class strata.

How could an argument that upholds existing class hierarchies as being written into natural law not be making a political argument?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 13 Jun 2018, 16:02

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:Well, I disagree based on what I've heard. Which is in the context of forums that he's been invited to. And if he's trying to affect public policy, he's sure going about it the wrong way.


I think you are ignoring the clear political bent of his arguments. Take his famed use of lobster society. What he’s attempting to argue is that nature has essentially ordained that the smart and the strong and the dominant have a natural claim on superiority in our society. He uses IQ to argue that it is just an inconvenient truth that smarter people are suited for a high position in the class strata.

How could an argument that upholds existing class hierarchies as being written into natural law not be making a political argument?


I smell a set up.

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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 13 Jun 2018, 16:27

and why, oh why would privileged young alt-righters respond so enthusiastically to such an example???
you either think he's pandering to them or you don't.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 13 Jun 2018, 16:34

sneelock wrote:and why, oh why would privileged young alt-righters respond so enthusiastically to such an example???
you either think he's pandering to them or you don't.


I think it has less to do with the IQ thing and more to do with the Incel thing.

I could do in one sentence for those guys what it takes Peterson 1,400 words to do: Take a shower, comb your hair, brush your teeth and wash your clothes.

That's half the battle.

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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 13 Jun 2018, 16:35

the other half might go something like this:
get your head out of your ass!
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 13 Jun 2018, 17:01

That Peterson has ideas that are appreciated by rightists is not his fault. Basically he just tells the truth based upon his research and his own intellect. Hitler liked dogs. Must we dislike dogs now? You Peterson haters seeming can't handle truth and honesty. He doesn't sugar coat his words. He would be a terrible Democrat, especially because he's a Canuk. And I'm not an acolyte or anything. I just think his talks are interesting like I'm in a good class in college and I learn new shit about psychology.
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