Before Jordan Peterson.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 11 Jun 2018, 18:58

Jimbo wrote:An American teenager - not a Somali tribesman - goes for job counseling to see what sort of career he'd probably be good at and among other tests and interviews there is an IQ test. The kid scores 100 points on the IQ test. Should his best career choice be:

a. Truck driver
b. Insurance sales rep
c. Computer programmer

Like I said it was a fascinating talk. It doesn't exist yet but they talked about how researchers are looking for fixes for low IQ, an IQ pill, possibly. They talk of the ramifications and how it would benefit mankind if we were smarter. I thought of the movie/book Charley from back in the day. That was an impactful statement about high and low IQs.


Read - The Mismeasure of Man - by Stephen Jay Gould as to why this is all bollocks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man

It is just dressing up social Darwinism in new clothes, the last attempt was The Bell Curve, which is debunked comprehensively in the second edition of the Gould book, but it is the same old back rationalization of why the White Man is on top that has been going on in racist circles since the late 19th century, Darwin himself would have none of it.

Peterson is just rereleasing a zombie argument that has been debunked by scientists over and over again for a hundred years now.

You don't need a pill to raise your IQ you just have to learn how IQ tests work and you can raise it 10-20 points in a few days. Then you can go for the computer programmer job! The idea that IQ can be directly linked to the job you can do is risible anyway.

He is correct in that you probably won't finish a PhD if you have an IQ of 110, but talk to any University lecturer and they will tell you tales of countless idiots who got PhDs one way or another.

The number one most important thing to succeed in life isn't to have a high IQ, going to any MENSA meeting will disabuse of that, it is to have rich parents.

That is why rich people want you to believe that your success is pre-determined by your genetics; it is all a scam Jimbo a conspiracy and you are falling for it, You are usually pretty good at spotting them too :D
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 11 Jun 2018, 19:31

Copehead wrote: it is all a scam Jimbo a conspiracy and you are falling for it, You are usually pretty good at spotting them too :D


You really lose all your credibility when you say something like this.
:)
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 11 Jun 2018, 20:16

toomanyhatz wrote:
Copehead wrote: it is all a scam Jimbo a conspiracy and you are falling for it, You are usually pretty good at spotting them too :D


You really lose all your credibility when you say something like this.
:)


Honestly I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

Why do people continually bring up this Social Darwinism with its "The rich man in his castle, the poor man at the gate ......." conclusions if not trying to stop people wondering about why the offspring of the wealthy are just so damn successful?

It's all the genes you know, not the millions I inherited.

Seems to be one of the ways the right stay in power is by telling poor people they can expect no better, stop being envious and anyway at least they aren't Black and it is all pre-ordained by your genetics.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 11 Jun 2018, 20:42

toomanyhatz wrote:
Copehead wrote: it is all a scam Jimbo a conspiracy and you are falling for it, You are usually pretty good at spotting them too :D


You really lose all your credibility when you say something like this.
:)

Snee has just PM'ed me to explain this joke :oops:

So much for my astronomic IQ
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 11 Jun 2018, 23:45

Copehead wrote:
Read - The Mismeasure of Man - by Stephen Jay Gould as to why this is all bollocks



(The next morning) Thank you for mentioning this. Now I see where you are coming from. I remember who Gould was - nowhere near the top of my mind today but he was the new cool anthropologist of the time. He certainly got no argument from me. He showed how novelty song singer Ray Price was right: Everyone is beautiful in their own way.

But no, I didn't read Gould's book but I just read about it over on Wikipedia where there is praise for Gould's book and criticism. The critical parts do seem to be Peterson-esque. Debunking me is easy but If you want to debunk the cited professional Gould critics I'd like to see you try.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 11 Jun 2018, 23:52

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Read - The Mismeasure of Man - by Stephen Jay Gould as to why this is all bollocks



(The next morning) Thank you for mentioning this. Now I see where you are coming from. I remember who Gould was - nowhere near the top of my mind today but he was the new cool anthropologist of the time. He certainly got no argument from me. He showed how novelty song singer Ray Price was right: Everyone is beautiful in their own way.

But no, I didn't read Gould's book but I just read about it over on Wikipedia where there is praise for Gould's book and criticism. The critical parts do seem to be Peterson-esque. Debunking me is easy but If you want to debunk the cited professional Gould critics I'd like to see you try.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man


That is because it is Wikipedia and it gives false equivalence between the plaudits and the criticism.

The book was almost universally praised in evolutionary genetics circles as geneticists were getting increasingly frustrated with right wing pricks dressing up their white supremacist meanderings with ladles of pseudo-science.

Some of the criticism was just the usual scientific point scoring that didn't address his main points but quibbled with some of the methodology, much of the criticism stated in Wikipedia takes aim at some of his work but agrees with his overall conclusions if you read it.

I would suggest you read his book he effectively eviscerates the pseudo-science of The Bell Curve and so all of Peterson's crap which is just going to be an attempt to reheat this slop and hope no one notices it a PRATT of nearly 100 years standing.

Social Darwinism is nearly always crap
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 12 Jun 2018, 00:14

It's also Ray Stevens, not Price.

By the way, I can't find a single instance anywhere of Peterson claiming that blacks are intellectually inferior. Again, not saying it didn't happen, just that Copeface's default position seems to be to accept that he did. He's denied white privilege, which is certainly already reason to criticize him, so why make stuff up to pile on further when it's not even necessary?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 12 Jun 2018, 01:27

toomanyhatz wrote:It's also Ray Stevens, not Price.

By the way, I can't find a single instance anywhere of Peterson claiming that blacks are intellectually inferior. Again, not saying it didn't happen, just that Copeface's default position seems to be to accept that he did. He's denied white privilege, which is certainly already reason to criticize him, so why make stuff up to pile on further when it's not even necessary?


He isn't brave/stupid enough to make that claim explicitly, but it is implicit once you go down the route of racial IQ and Social Darwinism, I imagine he holds the hands of his acolytes long enough for them to make that "intellectual" leap themselves.

He may not even believe himself but he certainly isn't stating that it is wrong, it is just another one of those things that he is "brave" enough to talk about despite the fact that it is a load of old crap and has been shown to be a load of old crap every time it has been brought up for nigh on 100 years.

It just sciency sounding enough for someone not equipped with much curiosity or scientific education to accept at face value as irrefutable evidence.

As I said the Gould book debunks this genetic predetermination rubbish thoroughly and I can only assume that Peterson isn't interested in facts but only in telling his people what they like to hear for money now.

Why the sort of right wing people he attracts should wish to believe that your place in life is largely determined by your genetic inheritance when most of them live in their parents basements is beyond me. I imagine they believe it doesn't apply to them so much as to the people they look up to and down on.

The whole rickety pseudo-science basically falls apart because there hasn't been enough time or genetic isolation to do more than tinker at the edges of the human genome since we ( Homo sapiens) left Africa; things like skin colour and facial characteristics may seem big differences to us because we are visually biased but they are fairly trivial in terms of genetic coding and have a strong driver ( sunlight and the need for vitamin D ) unlike something like intelligence; there is no gene for intelligence like there is for eye colour or skin melanin.

And what really is infuriating is the fact that the political right keep resurrecting this pseudo-science for what are, at base, racist reasons.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 02:01

Copehead wrote: there is no gene for intelligence like there is for eye colour or skin melanin.


Google "intelligence gene".

Scientists have investigated this question for more than a century, and the answer is clear: the differences between people on intelligence tests are substantially the result of genetic differences...By genetic, we mean differences passed from one generation to the next via DNA.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ereditary/

Intelligence genes discovered by scientists


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scienc ... tists.html

Height, hair color, eye color, and intelligence are traits passed on by
a. genes
b. chromosomes
c. RNA

Height, hair colour, eye colour, and intelligence are traits passed on by genes. The correct option is A. Genes are found inside the chromosomes which are enclosed in DNA molecules. Genes carry all the information that are responsible for the traits and character found in living organisms. Genes are typically pass from the parents to the offsprings.


Read more on Brainly.com - https://brainly.com/question/1379256#readmore
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 12 Jun 2018, 02:07

All true, but on what are you basing your supposition that Peterson has even suggested any of what you're arguing against? I hope you're not taking Jimbo as a source, as I said before...
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 12 Jun 2018, 02:54

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote: there is no gene for intelligence like there is for eye colour or skin melanin.


Google "intelligence gene".

Scientists have investigated this question for more than a century, and the answer is clear: the differences between people on intelligence tests are substantially the result of genetic differences...By genetic, we mean differences passed from one generation to the next via DNA.


I don't think anyone has said anything different
IQ test correlate well with intelligence but they aren't intelligence, for a start they are a learnable skill like playing the piano. That probably also correlates well "intelligence" but we don't give people jobs and promotions if they can play the piano unless they are applying for the post of pianist.


Intelligence genes discovered by scientists


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scienc ... tists.html



I said there is no such thing as a gene for intelligence, there are genes for intelligence which is why there is an s on the end of gene in the article you posted.

I think you are missing the point here Jimbo, no one disputes that there is a genetic component to intelligence, a very large one, but there isn't a racial component to intelligence, no matter that Ashkenazi Jews outscore other people they are not racially disposed to be more intelligent just culturally disposed to score well on IQ tests, as I said they used to score pretty badly because IQ tests were designed by WASPy people and they didn't have access to high quality education.

If Peterson is simply saying that there is a large genetic component to individual intelligence he is just saying something so obvious as to be banal.

If he is saying there is a racial component to intelligence he is saying something that has been proven to be wrong.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 12 Jun 2018, 02:57

toomanyhatz wrote:All true, but on what are you basing your supposition that Peterson has even suggested any of what you're arguing against? I hope you're not taking Jimbo as a source, as I said before...


Well seeing as I'd rather rupture my own spleen with a rolling pin than watch Peterson have an intellectual discussion about intelligence I am rather having to go on what Jimbo is reporting Peterson is saying.

Perhaps some one less fastidious than me can check to make sure.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 03:09

Copehead wrote: no matter that Ashkenazi Jews outscore other people they are not racially disposed to be more intelligent just culturally disposed to score well on IQ tests.


No, not racially but genetically. Peterson's point is smart Ashkinazi Jews marry smart Ashkinazi Jews and so pass on smartness to their offspring. It's a "Duh!" kind of point but in case some anti-Semitic types are lurking wondering why a seemingly disproportionate number of Jews are in powerful positions as well has having money the answer is not a conspiracy but that they're simply smarter than average. It takes brains to be a good lawyer, banker, professor, etc.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 12 Jun 2018, 03:28

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote: no matter that Ashkenazi Jews outscore other people they are not racially disposed to be more intelligent just culturally disposed to score well on IQ tests.


No, not racially but genetically. Peterson's point is smart Ashkinazi Jews marry smart Ashkinazi Jews and so pass on smartness to their offspring. It's a "Duh!" kind of point but in case some anti-Semitic types are lurking wondering why a seemingly disproportionate number of Jews are in powerful positions as well has having money the answer is not a conspiracy but that they're simply smarter than average. It takes brains to be a good lawyer, banker, professor, etc.


If Ashkenazi Jews are all predisposed to do well on IQ tests because of genetics than that is a racial bias.

Ashkenazi Jews do well on IQ tests because they value education and they train their offspring to do well in IQ tests. The same reason East Asian children and Indian children in the US do well in IQ tests.

As I said 100 years ago they did poorly in IQ tests because they didn't have access to such good education and were given IQ tests that were culturally alien to them.

What we are seeing here is largely a nurture effect and the honing of IQ tests to be less culturally biased towards people of Northern European extraction.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 03:57

Copehead wrote:
If Ashkenazi Jews are all predisposed to do well on IQ tests because of genetics than that is a racial bias.



"All"? Now that's racial. Peterson never said all. He said a larger statistical number of AJs have higher than average IQs.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Jun 2018, 09:40

I don’t really have all that much trouble with the fact that one racial group would be seen as having a higher IQ when charted. It makes sense that this would happen given cultural bias in IQ testing, differences in lived experience, and even more simply - the fact that it would be hard to imagine that things would ever line up any more neatly than that in nature.

But so what?

The part where guys like Peterson, Charles Murray and Sam Harris argue, “don’t kill the messenger” for simply compiling the stats may be compelling. But the part where they start drawing social conclusions and/or offer their own theories for why an IQ gap exists is simply indefensible.

In particular, Peterson’s agenda (that public policy should be built around these differences in IQ) is just wrongheaded. Fuck him.

Oh....and fuck IQ too. At best, it is an incomplete measurement. At worst, a completely useless one. It doesn’t measure creativity or social and emotional intelligence. It doesn’t account for environmental factors, nutrition, or class. In short...it measures what it measures and leaves a whole lot out of the equation.

People who use IQ as a tool to make political arguments should be regarded as fools and/or demagogues.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 10:30

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I

In particular, Peterson’s agenda (that public policy should be built around these differences in IQ) is just wrongheaded. Fuck him.



Peterson spoke of one of his patients, not a smart guy, for whom Peterson helped procure a city job. The job was as a a street cleaner and he was responsible for keeping clean a section of city blocks. Not a complicated job; he'd patrol and pick up litter and keep his section of streets tidy. But then the city went and bought some automatic cleaning machines which were too complicated for this guy to operate responsibly and was soon out of a job. Peterson went on to speak of how public planners need to think of just what you whined about Davey; how governments need to consider differences in IQ when making policy. While some may think of how this or that ethnic group are put upon, Peterson the psychologist thinks of how to help the less gifted among us better their lot. He's looking out for you, Davey and Copehead!
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Jun 2018, 13:53

So Peterson believes that as policy, we need to presume low IQ’s on the part of people in low wage jobs and act accordingly?

Even you ought to be able to smell what utter horseshit that is.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 12 Jun 2018, 14:28

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:So Peterson believes that as policy, we need to presume low IQ’s on the part of people in low wage jobs and act accordingly?

Even you ought to be able to smell what utter horseshit that is.


If you don't think there are actual stupid people in the world who need and deserve help then you are truly a heartless ignoramus.

FYI, I am no expert on IQ but I was a public junior high teacher of gifted kids in my short, real (not ESL) teaching career. To get into the program the kids needed an IQ score of 120 or above. They were all sharp kids from various backgrounds and they all took the same test. I believe IQ scores do reflect intelligence, sharpness, wittiness, problem solving ability - what I call sharp. I'll bet you have a pretty high IQ, not 120 but higher than the average which is 100 FYI.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Jun 2018, 14:37

Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:So Peterson believes that as policy, we need to presume low IQ’s on the part of people in low wage jobs and act accordingly?

Even you ought to be able to smell what utter horseshit that is.


If you don't think there are actual stupid people in the world who need and deserve help then you are truly a heartless ignoramus.


I’m absolutely sure there are stupid people in this world - and yes, my heart goes out to you.

But please explain to me how this is supposed to work on a public policy level? Are you seriously endorsing the idea that city planners ought to avoid the use of machinery on the basis that some workers in low wage jobs may not have the mental capacity to operate them?

Maybe you lack the mental capacity to see why this is an absurd suggestion? If so...back to Jimmy Dore for you!
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