Before Jordan Peterson.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 02:23

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:Well you enlighten us as to what wisdom an ignorant fascist like Tommy Robinson has to impart to us all then

And it isn't me who is deciding these things it is the people that will have to listen to them.

That is what you don't seem to be able to get your head around.

I don't decide Bindel isn't coming to Scumbag College, the students there do; and if you have a problem with that I suggest you go and tell them they are doing democracy wrong rather than me, because I really don't give a fuck as long as dangerous sociopaths are kept away from stirring up racial hatred.


I am a student, as well as a university member of staff, and I don't really mind who speaks on my campus.

And I did speak up when they tried to stop Bindel speaking on our campus.


Good for you, seems like you were in the minority on this one.

Personally I think the views of some feminists towards the transgendered could be a little more empathic, but I also see their point that you cannot just have people deciding they are now women and demanding to get use women's toilets and changing facilities based on simply that statement. It is a tricky one and I am glad that I don't really have to come to any decision on that.

The students at your University decided they didn't want to listen to Bindel in their Union, that is their right to do so, I wouldn't have had a problem with it personally, she is a respected feminist writer like Greer.

What I have a problem with is a tiny minority of far right students inviting a racist criminal like Robinson or a professional shit stirrer like Greek Bloke to the campus so they can play the victim card when they are rightly told to fuck off.

Once again: no ones freedom of speech is being denied here.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 02:30

Copehead wrote:The students at your University decided they didn't want to listen to Bindel in their Union, that is their right to do so, I wouldn't have had a problem with it personally, she is a respected feminist writer like Greer.

What I have a problem with is a tiny minority of far right students inviting a racist criminal like Robinson or a professional shit stirrer like Greek Bloke to the campus so they can play the victim card when they are rightly told to fuck off.

Once again: no ones freedom of speech is being denied here.


The students at my university didn't decide they didn't want to listen to Bindel, a tiny but vocal minority of them did. And that's the problem.

And what they're trying to deny is the opportunity of their other 99% of students to go along and hear her speak, ask her questions, maybe even debate her, and make up their own minds.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 02:50

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:The students at your University decided they didn't want to listen to Bindel in their Union, that is their right to do so, I wouldn't have had a problem with it personally, she is a respected feminist writer like Greer.

What I have a problem with is a tiny minority of far right students inviting a racist criminal like Robinson or a professional shit stirrer like Greek Bloke to the campus so they can play the victim card when they are rightly told to fuck off.

Once again: no ones freedom of speech is being denied here.


The students at my university didn't decide they didn't want to listen to Bindel, a tiny but vocal minority of them did. And that's the problem.


Of the people who gave two fucks about Bindel appearing more gave two fucks that she didn't than those who gave two fucks that she did.

However small the numbers of students who didn't want Bindel there they were larger than the numbers who did.

The overwhelming majority, quite rightly, decided they couldn't give 2 fucks either way.

Democracy has long worked along the lines of only bothering to count those people who can be bothered to turn up and vote.

And what they're trying to deny is the opportunity of their other 99% of students to go along and hear her speak, ask her questions, maybe even debate her, and make up their own minds.


The idea that the other 99% of students wanted the chance to hear what Bindel has got to say live when they could see and hear exactly what she has had to say in numerous formats across the internet is laudably optimistic.

She didn't get a platform because practically no one was bothered enough to give her one and more people were of the opinion that she shouldn't have one.

She can write a piece about how her freedom of speech is being stamped on in one of her regular columns in the Guardian and then tweet about it, although I doubt she will because I doubt she feels that moved to do so.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 29 May 2018, 17:30

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Just watched this debate featuring Peterson (teamed with Stephen Fry against Michael Eric Dyson and Michele Goldberg) on the subject of political correctness.

He was not impressive.



He lost his rag, albeit understandably so, when Dyson cynically played the race card.


The “race card” is already inherent in any conversation about PC.


Revisiting this debate - I want to call attention to some nuances around the section of the discussion you allude to (assuming we are both talking about the section just a few minutes beyo d the hour mark).

Right before Dyson calls Peterson a “mean, mad white man” - Peterson says, “let’s assume for a moment that I’ve benifitted from my white privilege...let’s assume that.”

Dyson interjects, “that’s a good assumption,” to which Peterson answers, “well that’s what you would say” (thus throwing out the first ad hominem - and pretty clearly in context what caused Dyson to snap back later).

But what is really interesting is what happens next. Peterson then does a riff in which he tries to quantify what percentage of his attainment is due to his privilege:

“Do you mean 5%? Do you mean 15%? Do you mean 25%? Do you mean 75%? And what do you propose I do about it? How about a tax? How about a tax that’s specialized for me so that I can account for my damned privilege - so that I can stop hearing about it.”

Earlier in the debate Michelle Goldberg addresses similar impatience around the issue of privilege when she points out that the exhortations that #metoo had gone on too long and too far started merely a week or two of the Harvey Weinstein revelations.

I searched the internet for analysis and reaction to this debate and see precious few of them even making the barest attempt to take in Dyson and Goldberg’s arguments. Most just dismiss them as the losers in the debate and as pullers of the race card - just as you did. I even found a Youtibe video that simply edited Dyson and Goldberg out, so that just the Peterson and Fry arguments could be heard without distraction. I guess revisionist de-platforming is fine.

The point being...the one thing that seems to not be negotiable is to have to “hear about” one’s privilege.

That’s the clearest proof of the existence of privilege any honest person ought to require.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 29 May 2018, 20:47

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The point being...the one thing that seems to not be negotiable is to have to “hear about” one’s privilege.

That’s the clearest proof of the existence of privilege any honest person ought to require.


That's what bothers me about these kind of "privilege" debates. The whole denial of privilege.

For the last couple weeks, I've been hearing reports about a study they did with resumes, where they submitted the same resumes to companies, one with white names like Greg and ones with traditional black names, like Jamal. Guess who got the call backs?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 29 May 2018, 21:28

sloopjohnc wrote:
That's what bothers me about these kind of "privilege" debates. The whole denial of privilege.


What’s even more baffling is the inevitable suggestion that even having to hear about your privilege qualifies as some kind of victimization!

Given that Peterson was supposed to be arguing for unfettered speech...he certainly seemed motivated to make speech about his privilege go away.

Strange how folks who claim to be high-minded about allowing all speech are so quick to condemn “the use of the race card.”
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 30 May 2018, 10:11

On Peterson's latest podcast he chats with Steven Pinker and Pinker ripped Peterson a new butthole.

No, of course they had an interesting and pleasant conversation about how, overall, life is better for a majority of we human beings. That's Pinker's bag. One "conservative-y" thing Peterson said was how more solar panel installers die than nuclear power plant workers. :?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Deebank » 30 May 2018, 10:58

Jimbo wrote:On Peterson's latest podcast he chats with Steven Pinker and Pinker ripped Peterson a new butthole.

No, of course they had an interesting and pleasant conversation about how, overall, life is better for a majority of we human beings. That's Pinker's bag. One "conservative-y" thing Peterson said was how more solar panel installers die than nuclear power plant workers. :?


An utterly idiotic comparison though - what does it prove? Certainly not that nuclear energy is safer than solar (which is what I suspect he's trying to get at).

It might demonstrate that nuclear contractors are more regulated and supervised than solar contractors I suppose but it says nothing about the relative safety of either energy source. **cough** Fukushima **cough** Chernobyl **cough**.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 30 May 2018, 11:51

Deebank wrote:
Jimbo wrote:On Peterson's latest podcast he chats with Steven Pinker and Pinker ripped Peterson a new butthole.

No, of course they had an interesting and pleasant conversation about how, overall, life is better for a majority of we human beings. That's Pinker's bag. One "conservative-y" thing Peterson said was how more solar panel installers die than nuclear power plant workers. :?


An utterly idiotic comparison though - what does it prove? Certainly not that nuclear energy is safer than solar (which is what I suspect he's trying to get at).

It might demonstrate that nuclear contractors are more regulated and supervised than solar contractors I suppose but it says nothing about the relative safety of either energy source. **cough** Fukushima **cough** Chernobyl **cough**.


Apologies if you mistook my meaning. Maybe Peterson doesn't hate nuclear power, many people don't, but my point was that that fact was the most politically conservative-ish thing Peterson said in 90 minute conversation. In a BCB thread where some here are accusing him of being a rabid right winger, if they cared to listen to him they'd see 's he's not. The statement's context was in a part of the discussion of how people think we live in a dangerous world when the two thinkers enumerate how safe we actually are. Perception vs reality. Is nuclear more dangerous than solar? Of course. Do more workers die installing solar panels? It seems so. Just a fact. Does it indicate Peterson's feelings about nuclear power. As I said, maybe.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 30 May 2018, 15:53

Jimbo wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Jimbo wrote:On Peterson's latest podcast he chats with Steven Pinker and Pinker ripped Peterson a new butthole.

No, of course they had an interesting and pleasant conversation about how, overall, life is better for a majority of we human beings. That's Pinker's bag. One "conservative-y" thing Peterson said was how more solar panel installers die than nuclear power plant workers. :?


An utterly idiotic comparison though - what does it prove? Certainly not that nuclear energy is safer than solar (which is what I suspect he's trying to get at).

It might demonstrate that nuclear contractors are more regulated and supervised than solar contractors I suppose but it says nothing about the relative safety of either energy source. **cough** Fukushima **cough** Chernobyl **cough**.


Apologies if you mistook my meaning. Maybe Peterson doesn't hate nuclear power, many people don't, but my point was that that fact was the most politically conservative-ish thing Peterson said in 90 minute conversation. In a BCB thread where some here are accusing him of being a rabid right winger, if they cared to listen to him they'd see 's he's not. The statement's context was in a part of the discussion of how people think we live in a dangerous world when the two thinkers enumerate how safe we actually are. Perception vs reality. Is nuclear more dangerous than solar? Of course. Do more workers die installing solar panels? It seems so. Just a fact. Does it indicate Peterson's feelings about nuclear power. As I said, maybe.


He is an economic libertarian who thinks that male violence is due to women, that black people are intellectually genetically inferior to white people and that climate change is a scam. That is about as right wing as you can get without starting up concentration camps.

I think what you mean is he doesn't wear a white hood, lynch black people and blame the world's evils on a Jewish conspiracy, but he'll probably get there.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 30 May 2018, 22:00

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/30/germaine-greer-calls-for-punishment-for-to-be-reduced

I imagine our Germaine will be getting loads more campus invites to air her shamefully suppressed views after this:

Germaine Greer has called for the lowering of punishment for rape and said society should not see it as a “spectacularly violent crime” but instead view it more as “lazy, careless and insensitive”.

She suggested that a fitting sentence for the offence might be 200 hours’ community service and perhaps an “r” tattoo on the rapist’s hand, arm or cheek.


Sometimes you just have to admit that people you formerly admired have just gone batshit crazy after spending too long having their opinions listened to as if they were particularly insightful or important.

Morrissey has done it, Peterson set a world record for doing it by the looks of things and Greer has now removed herself from the burden of being taken seriously.

She should start a You Tube channel and start punting herself to the InCel brigade, they'd lap this up.

You can sort of see what she's driving at but she seems to have given up on actually parsing what she is going to say for error or ambiguity and entered a sort of "speke yore brains" mode of discourse.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jeemo » 30 May 2018, 22:25

Copehead wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/30/germaine-greer-calls-for-punishment-for-to-be-reduced

I imagine our Germaine will be getting loads more campus invites to air her shamefully suppressed views after this:

Germaine Greer has called for the lowering of punishment for rape and said society should not see it as a “spectacularly violent crime” but instead view it more as “lazy, careless and insensitive”.

She suggested that a fitting sentence for the offence might be 200 hours’ community service and perhaps an “r” tattoo on the rapist’s hand, arm or cheek.




You can sort of see what she's driving at but she seems to have given up on actually parsing what she is going to say for error or ambiguity and entered a sort of "speke yore brains" mode of discourse.


What is she driving at, that you can sort of see? I can't see beyond complete bonkers.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 30 May 2018, 22:34

Jeemo wrote:
Copehead wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/30/germaine-greer-calls-for-punishment-for-to-be-reduced

I imagine our Germaine will be getting loads more campus invites to air her shamefully suppressed views after this:

Germaine Greer has called for the lowering of punishment for rape and said society should not see it as a “spectacularly violent crime” but instead view it more as “lazy, careless and insensitive”.

She suggested that a fitting sentence for the offence might be 200 hours’ community service and perhaps an “r” tattoo on the rapist’s hand, arm or cheek.




You can sort of see what she's driving at but she seems to have given up on actually parsing what she is going to say for error or ambiguity and entered a sort of "speke yore brains" mode of discourse.


What is she driving at, that you can sort of see? I can't see beyond complete bonkers.


Buried in the crazy is a point about rape being a continuum of offences from a man rolling over on his half asleep but uncomplaining wife in the night to a woman being dragged down an alley by a masked man with a knife and they are not all of the same seriousness, but then she quickly disappeared into a ranty remix of her "rape is just spreading your legs" routine.

Even the nucleus of non-crazy is sort of "well, so what?" and in no way leads one to conclude the way she did.

You are right, it is all crazy, like Morrissey she has been indulged too long and now has no ability to self censor or think particularly critically about any weird thought or bugbear that crosses her mind.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 11 Jun 2018, 13:22

Just finished listening to Peterson's latest podcast, a 2 hour chat with another smart guy about intelligence. Odd and interesting how honest talk about how some people have a naturally higher intellect needs to be continually prefaced with an apology to some who might think such a discussion is offensive. It was a very interesting and enlightening talk.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 11 Jun 2018, 16:31

Jimbo wrote:Just finished listening to Peterson's latest podcast, a 2 hour chat with another smart guy about intelligence. Odd and interesting how honest talk about how some people have a naturally higher intellect needs to be continually prefaced with an apology to some who might think such a discussion is offensive. It was a very interesting and enlightening talk.


Who the living fuck thinks that intelligence doesn't vary?

What Jordan Peterson probably thinks but can't come out and say openly is that Black people are genetically inferior to white people when it comes to intelligence and this has been scientifically proven to be bullshit time after time, but racists can't let it lie.

Just one fact - that there is more genetic diversity within African populations than between African populations and populations from other parts of the world - suggests it is bullshit and then there is the short time frame since humanity left Africa.

But the idea that there are people out there denying genetic variation in intelligence is a stupid straw man of epic proportions.

Every time this guy opens his mouth he proves himself to be a bigger charlatan; he may be universally respected within his field but when he strays outside it he shows that he is either an ignoramus or a man with a rather nasty agenda.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 11 Jun 2018, 16:47

Copehead wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Just finished listening to Peterson's latest podcast, a 2 hour chat with another smart guy about intelligence. Odd and interesting how honest talk about how some people have a naturally higher intellect needs to be continually prefaced with an apology to some who might think such a discussion is offensive. It was a very interesting and enlightening talk.


Who the living fuck thinks that intelligence doesn't vary?

What Jordan Peterson probably thinks but can't come out and say openly is that Black people are genetically inferior to white people when it comes to intelligence and this has been scientifically proven to be bullshit time after time, but racists can't let it lie.

Just one fact - that there is more genetic diversity within African populations than between African populations and populations from other parts of the world - suggests it is bullshit and then there is the short time frame since humanity left Africa.

But the idea that there are people out there denying genetic variation in intelligence is a stupid straw man of epic proportions.

Every time this guy opens his mouth he proves himself to be a bigger charlatan; he may be universally respected within his field but when he strays outside it he shows that he is either an ignoramus or a man with a rather nasty agenda.


But what the bastard racist did say in the talk was that statistically Ashkenazi Jews have a higher IQ than any other group. And mice. OMG! They said if you breed the best maze runners their offspring are usually better maze runners. Not only that, they said low IQ people do worse economically than high IQ people. He even said if you have an IQ of 110 you shouldn't even try to get a PHD. It would be too difficult. That hurts because that's about my IQ! Now I'm discouraged from being the brain surgeon I always wanted to be.

Copehead, you're a moron.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 11 Jun 2018, 17:18

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Just finished listening to Peterson's latest podcast, a 2 hour chat with another smart guy about intelligence. Odd and interesting how honest talk about how some people have a naturally higher intellect needs to be continually prefaced with an apology to some who might think such a discussion is offensive. It was a very interesting and enlightening talk.


Who the living fuck thinks that intelligence doesn't vary?

What Jordan Peterson probably thinks but can't come out and say openly is that Black people are genetically inferior to white people when it comes to intelligence and this has been scientifically proven to be bullshit time after time, but racists can't let it lie.

Just one fact - that there is more genetic diversity within African populations than between African populations and populations from other parts of the world - suggests it is bullshit and then there is the short time frame since humanity left Africa.

But the idea that there are people out there denying genetic variation in intelligence is a stupid straw man of epic proportions.

Every time this guy opens his mouth he proves himself to be a bigger charlatan; he may be universally respected within his field but when he strays outside it he shows that he is either an ignoramus or a man with a rather nasty agenda.


But what the bastard racist did say in the talk was that statistically Ashkenazi Jews have a higher IQ than any other group. And mice. OMG! They said if you breed the best maze runners their offspring are usually better maze runners. Not only that, they said low IQ people do worse economically than high IQ people. He even said if you have an IQ of 110 you shouldn't even try to get a PHD. It would be too difficult. That hurts because that's about my IQ! Now I'm discouraged from being the brain surgeon I always wanted to be.

Copehead, you're a moron.


And about 100 years ago Ashkenazi Jews had low IQs because they didn't get a good education or get taught how to do IQ tests. The collective IQ of the Ethiopian people was raised by 20-30 points of a couple of decades by the simple expediency of bringing universal education and giving children IQ tests.

That is because IQ tests test a narrow band of behaviours that correlate with over all intelligence but aren't intelligence, they are IQ tests.

This sort of bullshit is just a cover for racism - I can't be racist because I think Russian Jews are more intelligent than WASPs - it's rubbish and the elephant in the room is the low IQ scores of African Americans, they dance around the elephant pointing at but never mention it because they are racists but they are gutless racists.

I am not a moron Jimbo because almost certainly have an higher IQ than you, see what I just did there Jimbo.

I also raised my IQ 20+ points in about 3 months by the simple expediency of doing IQ tests as a hobby, they are a learnable skill.

You can give Peterson and an Australian Aborigine IQ tests and Peterson will cream the Aborigine, probably by 50+ points.

But put the Aborigine and Peterson into the outback with a bottle of water and Peterson will be dead in about 3-4 days and the Aborigine will be fine.

Whose the fucking moron out of the two of them?

It's Peterson because he thinks IQ tests are intelligence or least thinks he can persuade people like you that they are and in so doing he can advance a racist agenda to morons with low IQs
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 11 Jun 2018, 17:33

An American teenager - not a Somali tribesman - goes for job counseling to see what sort of career he'd probably be good at and among other tests and interviews there is an IQ test. The kid scores 100 points on the IQ test. Should his best career choice be:

a. Truck driver
b. Insurance sales rep
c. Computer programmer

Like I said it was a fascinating talk. It doesn't exist yet but they talked about how researchers are looking for fixes for low IQ, an IQ pill, possibly. They talk of the ramifications and how it would benefit mankind if we were smarter. I thought of the movie/book Charley from back in the day. That was an impactful statement about high and low IQs.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 11 Jun 2018, 17:40

the American right is anti-intellectual. they only embrace intellectualism, it seems to me, when it is used to make prejudices seem like reasonable things. look at William F. Buckley, he said any number of ghastly and prejudiced things over his long career. He was praised as an intellectual of the right when he died. Look at Hitchens. the American right could care less about his keel-hauling of Kissinger or his atheism. He became a fixture on the right once he started conflating Islam with terrorism. they'd book him every chance they got until he stopped keeping his mouth shut about other things.

the American Right wants to be able to point at somebody who is recognized as smart saying prejudiced things. it's as though they think this makes it okay. see? we aren't prejudiced -- we're smart!!!
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 11 Jun 2018, 17:49

Oh yeah, well Chomsky sez …
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