Before Jordan Peterson.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:15

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:What both he and Peterson both obfuscate on is the fact that PC isn’t just a reaction to individual microaggressions. It is a reaction to systemic inequalities.


Fry at least certainly acknowledges that in the debate. But what he questions is whether PC is now ultimately an effective or useful response to what you call systemic inequalities, in the final estimation. I think what he identifies is that the PC orthodoxy has now become a zero sum game in which a kind of new censoriousness dictates what one may or may not say, or think.

Yes, there is an overwhelmingly strong argument that in any civil society a spirit and social code of friendliness, acceptance and reasonable tolerance of difference and diversity should prevail. And I would wholly agree with that.

But if we go back to the debate about campus censorship, and the student groups demanding that certain speakers should be banned from speaking on university and college campuses in the UK and US, you'll see that this spirit of acceptance and tolerance of difference is not exemplified in the campaigns that are now manifest to silence anyone who transgresses the new orthodoxy of what may be heard on campus.

And the likes of Copehead will trot out their usual arguments ad absurdum about skinheads turning up to wreak havoc on campus. But this is a diversionary tactic employed by people backing those who would happily censor a far wider range of speakers on campus. Who would happily censor anyone who disagrees with them.

Let me give you an example. At the university where I work, there was a concerted campaign not that long ago to ban from speaking Julie Bindel, one of the most eminent feminist writers and thinkers of our time, simply because she has expressed doubts about the new orthodoxy on transexuals. You are not going to get violent feminists turning up on campus at a Julie Bindel event to beat up people they disagree with. In fact based in the evidence so far, what you're more likely to have is trans activists (sometimes men) being violent towards women at these events. But there was a vocal minority campaigning for her not to be allowed to speak on campus. Simply because they disagreed with what she was saying.

The same happened to Germaine Greer too, very recently. To paraphrase a comment I read the other day, who exactly is going to be scared of Germaine Greer speaking on campus?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:18

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:What both he and Peterson both obfuscate on is the fact that PC isn’t just a reaction to individual microaggressions.


PS: please may we not use the term 'microaggressions'? It's such a prissy, silly word.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 29 May 2018, 01:32

Insouciant Western People wrote:The same happened to Germaine Greer too, very recently. To paraphrase a comment I read the other day, who exactly is going to be scared of Germaine Greer speaking on campus?



I’m going to go out a limb here and guess rape victims and transgender people. Also, people who happen to love rape victims and transgender people. GG has always been notable for expressing her feelings in no uncertain terms. I think reducing rape to “spreading your legs” and the transgender experience to “having your dick chopped off” might be entertaining coming from a well known lively speaker but they are also horrible simplifications. Saying such things to groups of people makes it seem okay to express these opinions in this way. Call me a fussy old school marm but I think making a big deal about speakers like that is the right way to go about it.

I don’t know how it is over there but I know how it is over here. Most people who put “political correctness” at the top of their list of concerns who are not show biz types are people who feel like they should be able to say “retards” or the n-word or remark on the size of somebody’s ass without there being ANY social cost for them doing these things.

JP may have been an intellectual once and he may be one again. For the time being, in America at least, he is more like Howard Stern or Tony Robbins. He is making a very good living telling people what they want to hear.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 01:34

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:Well I'd never heard of him.


Mate. No disrespect intended, but judging by your comments on here over the years, I imagine there's an awful lot of major intellectuals, scientists and thinkers you've never heard of.


Indeed there are; and he is none of those things.

But it is comical watching people trying to make a case for why he is.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:44

sneelock wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:The same happened to Germaine Greer too, very recently. To paraphrase a comment I read the other day, who exactly is going to be scared of Germaine Greer speaking on campus?



I’m going to go out a limb here and guess rape victims and transgender people. Also, people who happen to love rape victims and transgender people.


There are a lot of people who say things I vehemently disagree with, for various reasons, some of them personal. My usual responses are to either not go to hear them speak, or to go along and debate with them.

What I don't do is to try and stop them speaking.

if you don't want to hear what she's saying, don't put yourself within earshot of her. It's that simple.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 01:47

Insouciant Western People wrote:[quote
And the likes of Copehead will trot out their usual arguments ad absurdum about skinheads turning up to wreak havoc on campus. But this is a diversionary tactic employed by people backing those who would happily censor a far wider range of speakers on campus. Who would happily censor anyone who disagrees with them.


No it isn't it is a tactic of people who don't think people like Tommy Robinson or that gay weirdo with the Greek name have anything useful to impart to students, or anyone else for that matter.

I have no problem with people like Germaine Greer or Bindel being given a platform at Universities so stop trying to pretend I do.

The victim mentality on the right is becoming ridiculous.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 29 May 2018, 01:49

I know it seems like I’m going off the reservation here. Maybe I should put this in the Donald Trump thread but here I am so I’m going to put it here.

I watched that Newsnight interview with Steve Bannon and it really concerned me for a lot of reasons. He goes on the News show to spread his version of what he is doing. “Economic Populism” sounds so much better than other things you might call what he supports. He pulls things out of his ass. He pulls so many things out of his ass that the correspondent who seems very prepared can not possible debunk them all. Whenever she does catch him contradicting himself or saying something patently untrue what does he do? He insults her, her station, her entire line of work. Everything she says is meaningless he implies because she is a tool of a failing system.

Why in the world would anybody invite a guy like that on their show? Since that show aired he’s been getting all this publicity for saying that Martin Luther King would certainly have been a big fan of Donald Trump and his policies. He uses them for publicity while claiming they have no importance. Well, talk about having your cake and eating it too!

I think many debates are playing out like this right now. You are passé and irrelevant and I’m going to get a lot of press for putting you on the spot.

Nice work if you can get it.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 29 May 2018, 01:50

Insouciant Western People wrote:
sneelock wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:The same happened to Germaine Greer too, very recently. To paraphrase a comment I read the other day, who exactly is going to be scared of Germaine Greer speaking on campus?



I’m going to go out a limb here and guess rape victims and transgender people. Also, people who happen to love rape victims and transgender people.


There are a lot of people who say things I vehemently disagree with, for various reasons, some of them personal. My usual responses are to either not go to hear them speak, or to go along and debate with them.

What I don't do is to try and stop them speaking.

if you don't want to hear what she's saying, don't put yourself within earshot of her. It's that simple.


Right. So if you don’t want to watch an athlete kneel during the National Anthem - just show up to the game a few minutes late. :roll:
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 29 May 2018, 01:52

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Just watched this debate featuring Peterson (teamed with Stephen Fry against Michael Eric Dyson and Michele Goldberg) on the subject of political correctness.

He was not impressive.



He lost his rag, albeit understandably so, when Dyson cynically played the race card.


The “race card” is already inherent in any conversation about PC.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 29 May 2018, 01:53

If you called Latinos “wetbacks” then got invited to speak - you can count on Latinos who think it’s insulting to be called ‘wetbacks” to show up. Why shouldn’t they feel like inviting someone who has insulted them makes it okay to insult them? Free speech is a two way street. You don’t want them to show up?? Maybe apologize? Choose another word??

I think Inviting someone who says divisive things without expecting expressions of division is a bizarre sort of “affirmative action” the real world doesn’t work like that.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:56

Copehead wrote:No it isn't it is a tactic of people who don't think people like Tommy Robinson or that gay weirdo with the Greek name have anything useful to impart to students, or anyone else for that matter.


There's the rub though, it's who you (and people like you) think has anything 'useful to impart'.

It's your arbitrary political views, whims and prejudices that decide it. Or the arbitrary political views, whims and prejudices of the student union councils at universities, who in the UK have usually been elected on a vote with an average overall turnout of around 18%.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 29 May 2018, 01:57

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Just watched this debate featuring Peterson (teamed with Stephen Fry against Michael Eric Dyson and Michele Goldberg) on the subject of political correctness.

He was not impressive.



I'll watch the whole thing later, but I watched the section on group privilege vs. individual rights. I thought Peterson was pretty inept in his counter to Dyson and didn't really address what Dyson was talking about re: institutional prejudice. Maybe I'll think differently after watching the whole thing.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 01:59

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Right. So if you don’t want to watch an athlete kneel during the National Anthem - just show up to the game a few minutes late. :roll:


Yes.

Or just respect the right of your fellow citizens to express their views, whether or not you agree with them.

This is what people should do in a civil society.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 29 May 2018, 02:02

I don’t live in a civil society. I live in a country where the President calls those guys bums who should leave the country. I live in a country where the people who run those games say those players have no right to express themselves in that way at those games.

You can talk about free speech all you want but the squeakiest wheels are going to keep getting the grease until other wheels start squeaking louder.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 02:05

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:No it isn't it is a tactic of people who don't think people like Tommy Robinson or that gay weirdo with the Greek name have anything useful to impart to students, or anyone else for that matter.


There's the rub though, it's who you (and people like you) think has anything 'useful to impart'.


Well you enlighten us as to what wisdom an ignorant fascist like Tommy Robinson has to impart to us all then

And it isn't me who is deciding these things it is the people that will have to listen to them.

That is what you don't seem to be able to get your head around.

I don't decide Bindel isn't coming to Scumbag College, the students there do; and if you have a problem with that I suggest you go and tell them they are doing democracy wrong rather than me, because I really don't give a fuck as long as dangerous sociopaths are kept away from stirring up racial hatred.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 02:06

sneelock wrote:If you called Latinos “wetbacks” then got invited to speak - you can count on Latinos who think it’s insulting to be called ‘wetbacks” to show up. Why shouldn’t they feel like inviting someone who has insulted them makes it okay to insult them? Free speech is a two way street. You don’t want them to show up?? Maybe apologize? Choose another word??

I think Inviting someone who says divisive things without expecting expressions of division is a bizarre sort of “affirmative action” the real world doesn’t work like that.


I'm fully in favour of them turning up, and having their say. Demonstrate outside the venue. Go to the event and debate the person speaking. By all means, have your say. These are all reasonable responses.

Just don't try to stop the person speaking.

I saw a video the other day of people invading a pro-Israeli event at UCLA featuring speakers and flags from people with Jewish/Israeli, Kurdish and Armenian backgrounds. Protestors stormed into the event, tore down flags, berated the participants, intimidated them, shouted them down, and behaved like thugs. That behaviour is way out of order.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Sneelock » 29 May 2018, 02:08

Sadly, it’s the only way protests get on TV nowadays. That’s why our President doesn’t have press conferences anymore.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 29 May 2018, 02:09

Copehead wrote:Well you enlighten us as to what wisdom an ignorant fascist like Tommy Robinson has to impart to us all then

And it isn't me who is deciding these things it is the people that will have to listen to them.

That is what you don't seem to be able to get your head around.

I don't decide Bindel isn't coming to Scumbag College, the students there do; and if you have a problem with that I suggest you go and tell them they are doing democracy wrong rather than me, because I really don't give a fuck as long as dangerous sociopaths are kept away from stirring up racial hatred.


I am a student, as well as a university member of staff, and I don't really mind who speaks on my campus.

And I did speak up when they tried to stop Bindel speaking on our campus.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 29 May 2018, 02:11

Insouciant Western People wrote:
sneelock wrote:If you called Latinos “wetbacks” then got invited to speak - you can count on Latinos who think it’s insulting to be called ‘wetbacks” to show up. Why shouldn’t they feel like inviting someone who has insulted them makes it okay to insult them? Free speech is a two way street. You don’t want them to show up?? Maybe apologize? Choose another word??

I think Inviting someone who says divisive things without expecting expressions of division is a bizarre sort of “affirmative action” the real world doesn’t work like that.


I'm fully in favour of them turning up, and having their say. Demonstrate outside the venue. Go to the event and debate the person speaking. By all means, have your say. These are all reasonable responses.

Just don't try to stop the person speaking.

I saw a video the other day of people invading a pro-Israeli event at UCLA featuring speakers and flags from people with Jewish/Israeli, Kurdish and Armenian backgrounds. Protestors stormed into the event, tore down flags, berated the participants, intimidated them, shouted them down, and behaved like thugs. That behaviour is way out of order.


Thank goodness they weren't gunned down by sniper rifles, is that way out of order?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 29 May 2018, 02:13

sneelock wrote:I don’t live in a civil society. I live in a country where the President calls those guys bums who should leave the country. I live in a country where the people who run those games say those players have no right to express themselves in that way at those games.

You can talk about free speech all you want but the squeakiest wheels are going to keep getting the grease until other wheels start squeaking louder.


Exactly.

But apparently it is more pressing to protect the sanctity of the National anthem than to protest your kid’s being shot randomly...AND you don’t have to listen to Jordan Peterson lecture you about the evils of collectivism when you shut down liberal speech!
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