Before Jordan Peterson.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 15 May 2018, 22:58

Inevitable comment from the peanut gallery.

Does actually making a decent living have anything to do with anyone's credibility? Peterson had books out in the 90s that were well-respected in academic circles, and I can pretty much guarantee nobody here knew who he was. I can't imagine he's changed anything much, either. Just has a bunch of assholes embracing him. So no different from Hitchens, really.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 16 May 2018, 01:00

toomanyhatz wrote:Inevitable comment from the peanut gallery.

Does actually making a decent living have anything to do with anyone's credibility? Peterson had books out in the 90s that were well-respected in academic circles, and I can pretty much guarantee nobody here knew who he was. I can't imagine he's changed anything much, either. Just has a bunch of assholes embracing him. So no different from Hitchens, really.


I was just pointing out that far from not being able to choose who follows his intellectual ramblings he pretty obviously tailors them to milk the right wing cow.

So he is either a hack or a hypocrite.

I'd go for the former; he was a pretty low ranking talking head from a fairly minor place of learning who found he garnered column inches and money when he reheated a few tired old right wing tropes about political correctness dressed up as pseudo-science.

Who can blame him from wishing to ride that cash cow all the way to fame and fortune?

He appears to have little or no credibility outside the right wing echo chamber, I imagine he is busily destroying any academic standing he ever had and I doubt her cares a jot.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 16 May 2018, 01:31

Copehead wrote:I was just pointing out that far from not being able to choose who follows his intellectual ramblings he pretty obviously tailors them to milk the right wing cow.


He really doesn't.

he reheated a few tired old right wing tropes about political correctness dressed up as pseudo-science.


Not the primary subject of his work in the slightest. It's what's getting the most attention, and I agree it's a pity, but he hasn't tailored his academic work to it at all.

He appears to have little or no credibility outside the right wing echo chamber


Also not true.

I imagine he is busily destroying any academic standing he ever had and I doubt her cares a jot.


That may be, but he actually seems to be as respected as ever in academic circles. Again, I agree that it's not what gets him the attention, and I find it disheartening. But again, as I've said here a billion times, morality and credibility are two very different things. And once again, you are confusing the two.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 16 May 2018, 01:31

Oh, sorry Harv - I'm doing it again! :lol:
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 16 May 2018, 02:22

toomanyhatz wrote:
Copehead wrote:I was just pointing out that far from not being able to choose who follows his intellectual ramblings he pretty obviously tailors them to milk the right wing cow.


He really doesn't.


I think he really does and more so now than he used to as he has a You Tube community of right wingers to keep happy. There was an article in the Guardian about an adjunct to You Tube where you crowd fund people you like ( originally set up for artists and musicians), he is the highest paid person on that site, I think it said $780,000/year.

He knows his audience and his output is increasingly tailored to grow and retain that audience. that audience is largely right wing so so is he. He might challenge them in minor ways but he obviously knows who butters his bread these days.

he reheated a few tired old right wing tropes about political correctness dressed up as pseudo-science.


Not the primary subject of his work in the slightest. It's what's getting the most attention, and I agree it's a pity, but he hasn't tailored his academic work to it at all.


I doubt he is doing much academic work of any standard these days. Why would you? No one listened to you for decades and all of a sudden you say something and you get a load of acolytes who pay you $$$$$$.

That's got to be better.

He appears to have little or no credibility outside the right wing echo chamber


Also not true.


Really? Perhaps you can supply some evidence of the esteem he is held in by academia then?
He never seems to have prospered much even in the misbegotten areas of academia in which he plied his trade .

I imagine he is busily destroying any academic standing he ever had and I doubt her cares a jot.


That may be, but he actually seems to be as respected as ever in academic circles. Again, I agree that it's not what gets him the attention, and I find it disheartening. But again, as I've said here a billion times, morality and credibility are two very different things. And once again, you are confusing the two.


But I can't see any evidence than he was ever more than a minor academic, from a second rank institution working in a questionable science.

I don't think I am confusing his morality and credibility, I think he has little of the latter and I don't know enough about him to know how moral he is as a person.

I can't see anything wrong with making money from telling people what they want to hear, it is an old, if not particularly noble, trade.

I am just questioning people holding up his academic prestige as some sort of backing for those views when he never seems to have had much, hence the fondness for the money and the limelight these days.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby echolalia » 16 May 2018, 10:14

Before Jordan Petersen… things were better. He seems to be part of a larger phenomenon. He’s a product of a point-scoring academic culture where size of reputation is closely geared to number of publications in academic journals. By cynically exploiting the publication game, second-rate characters like Petersen, Sam Harris and Steven Pinker (dodgy as fuck) have earned themselves reputations they don’t deserve. And now they’ve discovered the power of the internet. Petersen and Harris are at the guru end of the spectrum – I bet they have lots of “followers” on facebook – while at the other end are ostensibly credible figures like Daniel Dennett, whose reputations have been tainted by association with the more unsavoury types who hawk their snake oil in ten-minute you tube clips. None of them (except perhaps Dennett) is fit to lick the pork pie crumbs off of Wittgenstein’s desk.

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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Dr Markus » 16 May 2018, 10:49

Daniel Dennett is the first of these people to have quotes about AI in their wiki page. It was a just a first look at this guy, but it would be interesting to read more about this.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 16 May 2018, 16:19

echolalia wrote:Before Jordan Petersen… things were better. He seems to be part of a larger phenomenon. He’s a product of a point-scoring academic culture where size of reputation is closely geared to number of publications in academic journals. By cynically exploiting the publication game, second-rate characters like Petersen, Sam Harris and Steven Pinker (dodgy as fuck) have earned themselves reputations they don’t deserve. And now they’ve discovered the power of the internet. Petersen and Harris are at the guru end of the spectrum – I bet they have lots of “followers” on facebook – while at the other end are ostensibly credible figures like Daniel Dennett, whose reputations have been tainted by association with the more unsavoury types who hawk their snake oil in ten-minute you tube clips. None of them (except perhaps Dennett) is fit to lick the pork pie crumbs off of Wittgenstein’s desk.


He has just monetized echoing back right win people's fears to them with the voice of perceived authority on the internet.
It is what newspaper columnists have been doing for ever so you can see why they may have a jaundiced eye towards it.

The only novelty is that he has done it without having been given a traditional media platform, although he has those too now, and he is a right wing ( his claims not to be are risible if you take a few minutes to read his main points which can be boiled down to " political correctness has gone mad", he is that original ) academic in the media in a period when that seems rare.

Most academics have little interest in involving themselves in this sort of thing because they are actually working, but as you say it does seem to be a by product of how keeping a high media profile is seen as advantageous in some academic disciplines.

Sadly the publishing bollocks has spread to everything so that instead of working for years on something before publishing a ground breaking paper scientists have to publish a paper on every test tube fart to make it look like they are working to University bods who are so second rate ( speaking as someone so third rate they ended up in industry ) they ended up being university bods rather than researchers.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 18 May 2018, 22:07

Article on the guy in NY Times today. Personally, I think he's a kook.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/styl ... -life.html
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 19 May 2018, 01:14

sloopjohnc wrote:Article on the guy in NY Times today. Personally, I think he's a kook.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/styl ... -life.html


What a Looney Tune, how can anyone think this is big or clever is beyond me, even right wing people should be able to see the is moistly horse shit but they don't want to admit it because he fluffs them up on things like the Left being evil rather than just wrong.

He is a poster boy for all that is wrong with the modern right; a long list of whiney perceived grievances coming from people who have every chance in life thrown at them and wonder why they are still living in Mom's basement.

And it turns out the answers are women and socialism. Who coulda guessed it?!
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 21 May 2018, 09:25

Copehead wrote:...he was a pretty low ranking talking head from a fairly minor place of learning

But I can't see any evidence than he was ever more than a minor academic, from a second rank institution working in a questionable science.

I am just questioning people holding up his academic prestige as some sort of backing for those views when he never seems to have had much


You don't half talk some right old nonsense.

You know he was a Professor at Harvard, don't you?

And that the other two universities where he's worked, McGill and Toronto, are ranked 32nd and 31st respectively in the world?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Insouciant Western People » 21 May 2018, 09:27

echolalia wrote:Before Jordan Petersen… things were better. He seems to be part of a larger phenomenon. He’s a product of a point-scoring academic culture where size of reputation is closely geared to number of publications in academic journals. By cynically exploiting the publication game, second-rate characters like Petersen, Sam Harris and Steven Pinker (dodgy as fuck) have earned themselves reputations they don’t deserve. And now they’ve discovered the power of the internet. Petersen and Harris are at the guru end of the spectrum – I bet they have lots of “followers” on facebook – while at the other end are ostensibly credible figures like Daniel Dennett, whose reputations have been tainted by association with the more unsavoury types who hawk their snake oil in ten-minute you tube clips. None of them (except perhaps Dennett) is fit to lick the pork pie crumbs off of Wittgenstein’s desk.


Would you explain what you think is wrong with the work of Peterson, Harris and Pinker?
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Jimbo » 21 May 2018, 10:43

Insouciant Western People wrote:
echolalia wrote:Before Jordan Petersen… things were better. He seems to be part of a larger phenomenon. He’s a product of a point-scoring academic culture where size of reputation is closely geared to number of publications in academic journals. By cynically exploiting the publication game, second-rate characters like Petersen, Sam Harris and Steven Pinker (dodgy as fuck) have earned themselves reputations they don’t deserve. And now they’ve discovered the power of the internet. Petersen and Harris are at the guru end of the spectrum – I bet they have lots of “followers” on facebook – while at the other end are ostensibly credible figures like Daniel Dennett, whose reputations have been tainted by association with the more unsavoury types who hawk their snake oil in ten-minute you tube clips. None of them (except perhaps Dennett) is fit to lick the pork pie crumbs off of Wittgenstein’s desk.


Would you explain what you think is wrong with the work of Peterson, Harris and Pinker?


They're clearly too big for their britches.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 21 May 2018, 16:20

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:...he was a pretty low ranking talking head from a fairly minor place of learning

But I can't see any evidence than he was ever more than a minor academic, from a second rank institution working in a questionable science.

I am just questioning people holding up his academic prestige as some sort of backing for those views when he never seems to have had much


You don't half talk some right old nonsense.

You know he was a Professor at Harvard, don't you?

And that the other two universities where he's worked, McGill and Toronto, are ranked 32nd and 31st respectively in the world?


Everyone's been a professor at Harvard and you do know that every academic in the US is a professor it isn't the same position as in the UK.

He was there for a while and left to take up a position at the global institution of academia that is the University of Toronto, no me neither.

It is like lauding some from The University of Sussex as a major global thinker because he tells you that women were born second rate.

If it is what you want to hear fine, but don't try pretending he is some sort of academic powerhouse.

He3 was unknown outside his own particular pseudo-science until he decided to pander to the Incel brigade for money.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 May 2018, 16:25

Insouciant Western People wrote:
echolalia wrote:Before Jordan Petersen… things were better. He seems to be part of a larger phenomenon. He’s a product of a point-scoring academic culture where size of reputation is closely geared to number of publications in academic journals. By cynically exploiting the publication game, second-rate characters like Petersen, Sam Harris and Steven Pinker (dodgy as fuck) have earned themselves reputations they don’t deserve. And now they’ve discovered the power of the internet. Petersen and Harris are at the guru end of the spectrum – I bet they have lots of “followers” on facebook – while at the other end are ostensibly credible figures like Daniel Dennett, whose reputations have been tainted by association with the more unsavoury types who hawk their snake oil in ten-minute you tube clips. None of them (except perhaps Dennett) is fit to lick the pork pie crumbs off of Wittgenstein’s desk.


Would you explain what you think is wrong with the work of Peterson?


I haven't studied Petersen's works in details, and that can get you in trouble with BCB, where if you don't know a band's 2nd song on their fourth album, you're labeled as a dilettante or piker, for lack of better description.

But here's my assessment. On the surface, because he cites studies and his very confident in his proclamations in assertions, he comes across as accurate. But from watching him awhile, he doesn't seem to cite specific studies and extrapolates their results to a wider population. Most studies are very limited in their scope and any kind of wider conclusion comes with a disclaimer.

Petersen seems to revel in those wider assertions, however, and not only asserts them to current times but applies them as universals. That kinda stuff may be provocative, but to my mind, discredits what he's asserting.

He tries to come across as Mr. Spock, but I think he secretly likes being Dr. Shock. He's a little too moth-like in his attraction to the media flame.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 21 May 2018, 22:32

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with his work, per se. I agree with most of what he says, and think he generally states it artfully and sincerely.

The problem I have with him is that, while he argues we should live as individuals and not accept being treated as archetypes, he simply replaces one archetype with another. That masculinity is not inherently toxic is not only true but an important distinction to make, and in our black and white world, the danger of that acceptance is very real.

What he's wrong about is that is that there's a ball-breaking radical feminist behind every corner. And I think his current fame is dependent on the very people that thought that in the first place. He's condemning prejudice while all the while justifying it in others.

Rather than believing that he's not responsible for who likes him, I believe it's contingent on him, in order to remain consistent if nothing else, to make the distinction that, if masculinity is not inherently toxic, nor is femininity inherently authoritarian.

In short, I think Sloop is right - I think he's being guided away from his own ideals, and the reason is that he's seduced by fame. Or maybe money. Probably some combination of the two.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 21 May 2018, 23:11

The reason why Copehead is FOS as usual is that none of this makes Harvard or McGill a minor place of learning, nor does his current fame negate any previous regard given a book that he wrote in the 90s before any of this happened.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 22 May 2018, 00:20

toomanyhatz wrote:The reason why Copehead is FOS as usual is that none of this makes Harvard or McGill a minor place of learning, nor does his current fame negate any previous regard given a book that he wrote in the 90s before any of this happened.


Personally I regard his whole "science" as a load of old bollocks, so I hold him in the same sort of regard as one highly thought of in Astrology circles.

I think it is incumbent on us to assess the authority of someone who is obviously making an appeal to personal authority in his polemic, on checking....meh.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby toomanyhatz » 22 May 2018, 00:30

And that is your opinion and a welcome one. But not the reasoning you gave previously. "Minor place of learning" were your words. Regarding his science as bollocks whether I agree or not (for the record: I don't) is sufficient reason. There is no need to question his credentials unless you have a legitimate basis to do so. You didn't, which is all I'm saying.

He also believes (as do I) that religious belief (or lack thereof) is one of the catalysts toward forming one's personal ethos - I could see why you'd have an issue with that, but that's your issue, not Peterson's.
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Re: Before Jordan Peterson.....

Postby Copehead » 22 May 2018, 01:51

toomanyhatz wrote:And that is your opinion and a welcome one. But not the reasoning you gave previously. "Minor place of learning" were your words. Regarding his science as bollocks whether I agree or not (for the record: I don't) is sufficient reason. There is no need to question his credentials unless you have a legitimate basis to do so. You didn't, which is all I'm saying.

He also believes (as do I) that religious belief (or lack thereof) is one of the catalysts toward forming one's personal ethos - I could see why you'd have an issue with that, but that's your issue, not Peterson's.


Well I've never heard of the University of Toronto, I would have assumed that it had one obviously, it is a big place, but that is about it. Minor place of learning seemed to fit the bill.
Not a fan of Psychology.
Ergo not accepting Peterson as an authority figure, although many will.

I haven't got past Peterson's basic misogyny and libertarianism to take issue with any bollocks he may think about religion and ethics and I doubt I ever will because his first up stuff is kind of childish.
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