Korea

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Copehead
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Re: Korea

Postby Copehead » 27 Apr 2018, 22:01

Toby wrote:I get the feeling that Kim Jong Un's economy is obviously on the ropes and maybe even his regime, otherwise I doubt that this reach-out would have happened. But it does feel significant.

How much of this is due to Trump? And IF N Korea disarms its nuclear stockpile, the DMZ is removed and a peace accord signed, it would be an absolutely huge boost for him, particularly as we are in an era where detente seems to be very much on the wane.


The North Korean economy has always been on the ropes, a while back people were literally starving to death after a few poor harvests.
The country is kept going by China as a client state and always has been, that hasn't changed and the way things are going in China it is going to change now. I can see Xi looking to overthrow, or even allow to be toppled, a fellow President for life can you?

The reach out is almost certainly what China wants, direct confrontation, which is what would almost certainly happen if a conflict started is not in their political interests I would imagine.

Absolutely none of it is due to Trump, I can't see how having an a moronic, unstable manchild in the White House has helped things along unless China got a bit windy that he really is a picnic short of a picnic and decided to throw him a bone to shut him up.

The chances of "N Korea disarms its nuclear stockpile, the DMZ is removed and a peace accord signed" are almost non-existence and the only way they would happen would be if Xi wanted that to happen and I can't see what China get's out of having a US ally on their Northern border.

I think you are misreading who the main player in all of this is, it certainly isn't Trump.
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Re: Korea

Postby Wally Bingbang » 27 Apr 2018, 23:42

Are you drunk?
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Re: Korea

Postby sneelock » 28 Apr 2018, 00:33

Reagan's policies were certainly a factor in Glasnost but his "hard-ass" act and "evil empire" rhetoric? I seriously doubt it. He was apparently very charming to Gorby and they got along very well. whatever part he played - him and his party were perfectly willing to immediately take 100% of the credit for it.

TRUMP was perfectly willing to tweet himself credit for this Korea situation before anything had actually been done.

I'll be honest - I never thought I'd see those guys shaking hands in my lifetime. whatever it took to get them there - I'm all for it. But, just because somebody gives themselves 100% credit for something doesn't mean they remotely deserve it.
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Jimbo
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Re: Korea

Postby Jimbo » 28 Apr 2018, 07:20

jimboo wrote:They ain't got any nukes Jimbo.


North Korea has a military nuclear weapons program,[7] and also has a significant quantity of chemical and biological weapons. As of 2003 North Korea is no longer a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT).[8] The country has come under sanctions after conducting a number of nuclear tests, beginning in 2006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Kor ... estruction
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Re: Korea

Postby Deebank » 28 Apr 2018, 11:27

bobzilla77 wrote:If NK de-nukes because they think Trump is willing to blow them up .... hey, I'm willing to take it.


No one ever 'de-nuked' because they were being threatened with nukes! I think the opposite is almost always true. The only viable response to a nuclear threat is a nuclear threat.

It is the memory of US carpet bombing and the ever-present threat of the US toting a big nuclear stick that has turned NK into a nascent nuclear power. There may have been an element of willy-waving involved but I suspect that was not the primary reason.
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Copehead
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Re: Korea

Postby Copehead » 28 Apr 2018, 13:06

Harvey K-Tel wrote:Are you drunk?


No

Neither am I Chinese.

Are you happy?
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andymacandy
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Re: Korea

Postby andymacandy » 28 Apr 2018, 14:27

Copehead wrote:
Absolutely none of it is due to Trump, I can't see how having an a moronic, unstable manchild in the White House has helped things along unless China got a bit windy that he really is a picnic short of a picnic and decided to throw him a bone to shut him up.


I think that Kim has been revelling in his "I'm a bit bonkers and you dont know that I wont push the button" spiel for years. It has a lot less impact when Trump gives off the same vibe.I agree that China has a bigger hand in this than is being reported, but I think that Trumps loose-cannon politics must have had an influence.
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Re: Korea

Postby LeBaron » 28 Apr 2018, 14:41

andymacandy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Absolutely none of it is due to Trump, I can't see how having an a moronic, unstable manchild in the White House has helped things along unless China got a bit windy that he really is a picnic short of a picnic and decided to throw him a bone to shut him up.


I think that Kim has been revelling in his "I'm a bit bonkers and you dont know that I wont push the button" spiel for years. It has a lot less impact when Trump gives off the same vibe.I agree that China has a bigger hand in this than is being reported, but I think that Trumps loose-cannon politics must have had an influence.


That’s the long and short of it, in my view.
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Re: Korea

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 28 Apr 2018, 16:20

The campaign to award Donald Trump a Nobel prize is on...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... is-no-joke
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Toby
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Re: Korea

Postby Toby » 28 Apr 2018, 17:00

The notion that Trump has had no influence is nonsensical.

The US has a major military presence in the region.

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Re: Korea

Postby Copehead » 28 Apr 2018, 17:14

Toby wrote:The notion that Trump has had no influence is nonsensical.

The US has a major military presence in the region.


Kim does what Xi says, if Xi is worried that Trump is a maniac then yes that will have some affect, but none of this is down to trump as a witting agent

You could put an potty trained silver back gorilla in the Whitehouse and that would influence world affairs.

I think the US military high command would show the gorilla a bit more respect.
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Re: Korea

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 28 Apr 2018, 18:22

Toby wrote:The notion that Trump has had no influence is nonsensical.

The US has a major military presence in the region.


The question isn’t whether Trump has influence. The question is whether his influence has been determinative in any tangible way.

There is no question that both Korean leaders have a strong incentive to share credit with Trump. There is a lot to be gained for both of them in taking him along for the ride. But was he actually instrumental?

I suppose he can be credited, at the very least, with not having done anything to ruin their efforts. That’s no small accomplishment for his rudderless state department. And who knows...maybe their sense that his erratic nature might gain them some major policy concessions simply by allowing him to have a foreign policy victory might have actually helped create the foreign policy victory. I guess you’d have to credit him with that.

But no...I don’t buy the notion that he’s playing 11th dimensional chess with these guys. Do you ?

I think this is a pretty fair overview of the matter...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-43895428
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Re: Korea

Postby sneelock » 28 Apr 2018, 18:23

I think the changing of the guard in South Korea is a very strong factor.
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Re: Korea

Postby Jimbo » 29 Apr 2018, 13:25

Trump schrump.

Incredible Agreement Between Leaders of North Korea and South Korea

By Ann Wright

Holy Smoke, who could have written a better agreement for the first meeting between South Korean President Moon Jae-In and North Korean Chairman Kim Jung Un -- the first time a leader from North Korea has set foot in South Korea in 65 years -- since the end of the Korean War.

In a day filled with remarkable scenes of the two leaders meeting in South Korea, then stepping back into North Korea, talking as equals, with respect toward each other, incredible, historic statements of peace and reconciliation, calling for a new era for peace after suffering so much hostility.

Elements of the agreement are:

--No more war on the Korean peninsula.

--Cease all hostile Acts on Land, Sea and Air.

--Family Reunions between North and South Korea on August 15.

--Transform the DMZ into a "Peace Zone."

The exact method of denuclearizing the Korean peninsula is not discussed -- leaving something to discuss with U.S. President Trump. All in all, a great day on the Korean peninsula!!

The full text of the joint declaration issued at inter-Korean summit is below...


https://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Inc ... 7-919.html
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Re: Korea

Postby sneelock » 16 May 2018, 16:56

just in the last couple of days North Korea has both...
a.) threatened that the summit would be cancelled if unilateral disarming was part of the agreement
b.) bragged of disarming at it's testing sights
talk about mixed signals.

so, what's Trump going to do?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/worl ... ummit.html
he says he's good either way but they still frame it as a diss.
certainly Trump sees this as a "Nixon in China" moment since he's been bragging about it before anything even happened.
still, Pompeo and Bolton and their damned "Libya Playbook" approach -- how does that look to a guy like Kim Jong?

the presence of Anti-Israel Hotheads at the Jerusalem shin-dig show us how important the right wing whack jobs are to this Admin.
does he dare back off his "zero tolerance" rhetoric? it seems like he might. if anything, he's unpredictable.
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Re: Korea

Postby Snarfyguy » 16 May 2018, 21:00

LOL. If by unpredictable, you mean dangerously erratic than yeah.

Looks like homey got played.

"Kim's release of those three prisoners (2 of which were conveniently snatched after Trump got into office) was the biggest damn red flag that NK were setting up for some fuckery. They baited Trump's dumb ass into giving them glowing praise on the tweet machine. Now they know exactly how much the egomaniacal DOTARD will bend over backwards to get good press for himself. They know Trump wants more from US-NK summit (press) than North Korea does (they clearly do not want to de-nucleaurize). They have good reason to believe that now that DOTARD's ego is already committed to the summit (especially if they know he needs the Summit to get out of/delay talking to Special Counsel--dollars to donuts they're aware of his domestic problems), and they'll get concessions from the U.S. before they agree to do the summit.

Art of the motherfucking deal, indeed..."

- Someone called YoBunnyBunny on Wonkette. Pretty much how I see it.
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Re: Korea

Postby Dr Markus » 17 May 2018, 12:43

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Re: Korea

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 May 2018, 21:56

sneelock wrote:TRUMP was perfectly willing to tweet himself credit for this Korea situation before anything had actually been done.


He's already carved out a spot on his shelf for the Nobel Prize.

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Re: Korea

Postby Copehead » 17 May 2018, 22:23

sloopjohnc wrote:
sneelock wrote:TRUMP was perfectly willing to tweet himself credit for this Korea situation before anything had actually been done.


He's already carved out a spot on his shelf for the Nobel Prize.


The predictable thing about Trump is that if he inadvertently manages to do something worthwhile he will almost certainly fuck it up before it comes to fruition.
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Re: Korea

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 May 2018, 22:49

Copehead wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
sneelock wrote:TRUMP was perfectly willing to tweet himself credit for this Korea situation before anything had actually been done.


He's already carved out a spot on his shelf for the Nobel Prize.


The predictable thing about Trump is that if he inadvertently manages to do something worthwhile he will almost certainly fuck it up before it comes to fruition.


:lol:

He is good at that.