The BCB Immigration discussion

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 22840
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 20 Apr 2018, 15:48

You could argue about duty to civic society though. Learn the language, respect and potentially adopt the customs of the country you have decided to live in.

I'm not saying that people don't do this - but as a reference to duty I think it goes beyond just taxation.

User avatar
Davey the Fat Boy
Posts: 23299
Joined: 05 Jan 2006, 02:55
Location: Applebees

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 20 Apr 2018, 16:05

LeBaron wrote:
As Toby can’t (or doesn’t wish to) get past certain mental blocks, I can’t not think of things in a technical way.


I get it. But that concedes an awful lot from the outset.

The other concurrent discussion still going on is Copehead’s attempt to get Toby to account for the possibility that laws can sometimes be local consecration of community biases.

That doesn’t mean that law isn’t law, or should simply be ignored if we dont like it. But in a conversation about immigration, the underlying question is, “what should the law be?” So it becomes circular to keep coming around to a technical reading of the law as the ultimate authority on the issue.

Obviously states and nations have a right to sovereignty. But we are engaged in an abstract conversation about what those laws ought to be in a just state...aren’t we?
The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

Image

User avatar
LeBaron
Diamond Geezer
Posts: 42508
Joined: 18 Jul 2003, 05:38
Location: Impregnable Citadel of Technicality

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby LeBaron » 20 Apr 2018, 16:09

All I’m saying is that notions of sovereignty don’t really mean much if all people have a right to live wherever they want. I’m not particularly troubled by that in the here and now but others obviously are.
Quaco wrote:Are you fucking high?

take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 22840
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 20 Apr 2018, 16:21

What the law should be applies entirely to what country. Denmark I'm sure has a very different policy on Immigration to somewhere like Argentina.

Thus is why global concepts of the morality of immigration are problematic.

User avatar
Davey the Fat Boy
Posts: 23299
Joined: 05 Jan 2006, 02:55
Location: Applebees

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 20 Apr 2018, 16:23

LeBaron wrote:All I’m saying is that notions of sovereignty don’t really mean much if all people have a right to live wherever they want. I’m not particularly troubled by that in the here and now but others obviously are.


Is that true?

Ultimately isn’t sovereignty simply about the people living in a state having the right to determine the rules for that state?

Is there a principle around sovereignty that holds that it must include exclusivity?
The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

Image

User avatar
Davey the Fat Boy
Posts: 23299
Joined: 05 Jan 2006, 02:55
Location: Applebees

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 20 Apr 2018, 16:26

Toby wrote:What the law should be applies entirely to what country. Denmark I'm sure has a very different policy on Immigration to somewhere like Argentina.

Thus is why global concepts of the morality of immigration are problematic.


Well I am an American answering a question you framed abstractly on a message board with members all over the world. Was this intended as a question around the global morality of immigration - or do you folks just want to work it out on your own?
The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

Image

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 23498
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Copehead » 20 Apr 2018, 16:30

Toby wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I do understand the emotion. I just happen to not want to spend my life in fear of something or something being assimilated into our 'culture' because, whether we like it or not, the British 'national identity' is a microcosm of many disparate cultures that have impacted positively on us and our way of life. It's progress.


It's the speed which is important though Pete.

I think most people in this country would, if you asked them, agree that immigration from the War up until about 2000 has been a positive thing.

But the reality is that the numbers of people since the turn of the century has exploded.

Image


And there are perfectly good reasons for that.

Trying to halt progress is just stupid and this is all part of progress.

My Shakespeare ancestors never left the village they had always lived in until the early 19th century, 400 fucking years in the same house, now people move countries, so what?

Fear of the different has always been used by right wing authoritarian governments in order to deflect anger away from where it really belongs - the concentration of capital in as few hands as possible.

You may like to think your outlook is libertarian but it isn't really is it, it is libertarian until the point you personally feel threatened by something then it becomes incredibly authoritarian, and that is the right in a nutshell.

The idea that immigration was a positive until an arbitrary date - 2000 - and since then it has been bad is just ridiculous.

You politics lack coherency they are a grab bag of various right wing tropes
And sometimes I ride on bus x82, say what!

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
LeBaron
Diamond Geezer
Posts: 42508
Joined: 18 Jul 2003, 05:38
Location: Impregnable Citadel of Technicality

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby LeBaron » 20 Apr 2018, 16:36

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
LeBaron wrote:All I’m saying is that notions of sovereignty don’t really mean much if all people have a right to live wherever they want. I’m not particularly troubled by that in the here and now but others obviously are.


Is that true?

Ultimately isn’t sovereignty simply about the people living in a state having the right to determine the rules for that state?

Is there a principle around sovereignty that holds that it must include exclusivity?


Sovereignty of an independent state is “about” authority over the state. It is necessarily “about” legal power. Those with power could choose to enact whatever immigration rules, laws, or standards they wish. However, it is easy to imagine relinquishing claims to that power resulting in losing it altogether.
Quaco wrote:Are you fucking high?

take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 23498
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Copehead » 20 Apr 2018, 16:40

Toby wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:But the point is Toby, you're viewing it entirely through an entirely Toby-centric lens. You're applying an arbitrary timeline that suits your agenda.

Of course, in that time, the English/British have been around the world, imposing their will on millions of others (against their wishes, presumably) - I'm assuming you believe The Empire/Commonwealth is a bad idea? Our colonisation of the US was a bad idea? The crusades were a bad idea?

You know, where does it stop? When did it stop being okay for us to impose our will on others and why is it wrong for us to embrace other cultures?

What exactly are you scared of?


I'm not scared of anything.

But the projection of English and British colonial power across the globe is not what we are discussing at all. How did the Crusades impact migration to
Britain? And in response to that anyway, we encouraged other people to come and live and work here after WW2 so I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Sure, I suspect that colonial guilt for what Britain "did" in other countries is a large part of why some people think immigration is good, to absolve the pain of something that they weren't even involved with. Discussing the relative merits and evils of a colonial empire is a whole other subject. The government encouraged migration from former parts of the British Empire and really, as official policy that should be the end of the discussion here.

I've not said anywhere that it is wrong to embrace to other cultures. This is about culture and identity that is being subsumed to some greater mass driven by global forces, some of which are beyond our control.

Have you thought about how American global cultural power has affected our country since WW2? In some respects it's a good thing - we got a shitload of great music that we have also managed to be a part of, but there are aspects of it that I think are "problematic". As Doug intimated earlier, the French made an inordinate effort since WW2 to protect their culture from America and in many ways I think it worked for them. (as an aside that is one aspect of state intervention that has obviously been very successful!).


Setting cultures in aspic is a mugs game in as much as it is impossible. The history of humanity is a history of flux, cultures change, French youth rap even if it is in French.

What the right use is the fear of this change to underpin their governments and you never ask what they are actually doing in your name, you are too busy wetting your pants at Jeremy Corbyn's Russian hat. And all the while the gains of the post war generation that allowed you and yours to pull themselves out of slums get an education and keep themselves healthy are all slowly eroded because we fear a socialist being in charge when it was socialism which gave us what we have.

I have never seen anything that doesn't convince me that Joe Average people who vote Conservative are fundamentally too thick to understand the world or they think impoverishment of their children is a price worth paying to make sure things like wealth redistribution, universal health care and education don't happen again.
And sometimes I ride on bus x82, say what!

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 22840
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 20 Apr 2018, 16:42

Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 23498
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Copehead » 20 Apr 2018, 16:45

Toby wrote:
Copehead wrote:I think we very much have a system with bias in it; perhaps the gross judicial failures of my lifetime have passed you by as you weren't poor, marginalised, Black or Irish.


Oh I'm not doubting that at all. I'm not suggesting in any way that the British legal system is a paragon.


Well you were a bit.

But the thing is no human system is without bias and error.

Is is better to have the rule of law, undoubtedly in my view, but we should always remember the law is just a human construct not and that Nazi Germany was very keen on the rule of law.
And sometimes I ride on bus x82, say what!

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 31654
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Goat Boy » 20 Apr 2018, 16:48

Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Aye.
Copehead wrote:I have never seen anything that doesn't convince me that Joe Average people who vote Conservative are fundamentally too thick to understand the world



The Modernist wrote:Griff writes the best political posts.

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 23498
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Copehead » 20 Apr 2018, 16:51

Toby wrote:You could argue about duty to civic society though. Learn the language, respect and potentially adopt the customs of the country you have decided to live in.

I'm not saying that people don't do this - but as a reference to duty I think it goes beyond just taxation.


I'd agree with this, joining a new society means more than just paying taxes. There is no reason why people shouldn't keep their own customs, religions and languages at home but they should respect the wider community, obey its laws and campaign to change anything they don't like to see if they can change things through political engagement.

But I think this is what the overwhelming majority of immigrants do everywhere.

The idea that people come over here and swamp us with their funny ways doesn't really hold up to much scrutiny, for every member of some nutty group who want Britain to become a caliphate there are thousands of cultural muslims who have a few pints on a Saturday night and even more observant Muslims who don't but just get on with life being British Muslims.
And sometimes I ride on bus x82, say what!

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
BOLLY BEE
hounds people off the board
Posts: 16799
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21
Location: pursued by the enraged queen

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby BOLLY BEE » 20 Apr 2018, 16:52

Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Image
Copehead wrote:Rather amusingly I remembered a very expensive 3* meal I ate that did disappoint slightly

User avatar
Minnie the Minx
funky thigh collector
Posts: 29421
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 16:00
Location: In the naughty North and in the sexy South

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Minnie the Minx » 20 Apr 2018, 16:52

Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Aye.


The tool’s tool.
I was laughing so hard at this I showed it to workfriends who wondered what I was laughing at. They laughed too. He’s being globally giggled at!
You come at the Queen, you best not miss.

Dr Markus wrote:
Someone in your line of work usually as their own man cave aka the shed we're they can potter around fixing stuff or something don't they?

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 23498
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Copehead » 20 Apr 2018, 16:55

Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Aye.


I see Goat Boy and Coan have arrived and don't understand what the word progress means

You'd think some who taught English would

Those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach TEFL.
And sometimes I ride on bus x82, say what!

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
Dr Markus
Posts: 17670
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Dr Markus » 20 Apr 2018, 16:55

Copehead wrote:
I'd agree with this, joining a new society means more than just paying taxes. There is no reason why people shouldn't keep their own customs, religions and languages at home but they should respect the wider community, obey its laws and campaign to change anything they don't like to see if they can change things through political engagement.
.


Might explain why Coan keeps having to move from city to city and country to country.
Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 31654
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Goat Boy » 20 Apr 2018, 16:57

Copehead wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Aye.


I see Goat Boy and Coan have arrived and don't understand what the word progress means

You'd think some who taught English would

Those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach TEFL.


Fuck off you div
Copehead wrote:I have never seen anything that doesn't convince me that Joe Average people who vote Conservative are fundamentally too thick to understand the world



The Modernist wrote:Griff writes the best political posts.

User avatar
BOLLY BEE
hounds people off the board
Posts: 16799
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21
Location: pursued by the enraged queen

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby BOLLY BEE » 20 Apr 2018, 16:57

Copehead wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Aye.


I see Goat Boy and Coan have arrived and don't understand what the word progress means

You'd think some who taught English would

Those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach TEFL.


those that can't teach TEFL what?
Copehead wrote:Rather amusingly I remembered a very expensive 3* meal I ate that did disappoint slightly

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 23498
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Copehead » 20 Apr 2018, 16:58

Toby wrote:Ah "progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.

I had hoped that this would be a decent discussion, but Copey has arrived, pulled down his pants and shat all over it. As usual.


Dear god it was you who thought that
"progress" - another left-wing grab bag trope.


was being clever, not Coan. How embarrassing for you.

Oh Dear Toby, you have wasted your education wanking over Roger Scruton lectures :lol:

If you feel intellectually unprepared to rise to the challenge a quick insult and running away will suffice.

Adieu!
And sometimes I ride on bus x82, say what!

Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.