The BCB Immigration discussion

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Toby
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The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 19 Apr 2018, 10:57

Is it possible to have a "decent" discussion about immigration?

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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby gash on ignore » 19 Apr 2018, 11:11

Any political discussion here will be tainted by people more interested in point-scoring.

What is point?
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby never/ever » 19 Apr 2018, 11:13

If it becomes the umpteenth thread falling prey to the UK-branch of the BCB political intelligentsia, then no.
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby PENK » 19 Apr 2018, 11:16

If there are just two or three people yeah but even on here you wouldn't make a page without someone coming up with sweeping statements like "I'm all for immigration but why do all the bad ones have to come to my country?" or "there should be no such thing as national borders so we should let everybody live where they like".

Speaking as an immigrant myself I do feel people should be free to choose where they live, but I think that given the political and social nature of the modern world I don't think you should be free to move to a country unless you have verifiable means of support there (job/partner/grant).

Asylum and refugees are a different matter but one that is all too often conflated with immigration.
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby BOLLY BEE » 19 Apr 2018, 11:23

aye
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Apr 2018, 11:32

nev gash wrote:What is point?


Indeed, what is point?
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Apr 2018, 11:33

Toby wrote:Is it possible to have a "decent" discussion about immigration?


It should be.

Can I asked what compelled you to ask this question today?
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby gash on ignore » 19 Apr 2018, 11:37

1-0
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby gash on ignore » 19 Apr 2018, 11:37

Image
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 19 Apr 2018, 11:38

I think it's a subject worth discussing, not only because it's in the news (a lot).

In the UK, Immigration is an enormous topic that everyone has an opinion on, but less nuanced perspectives can be castigated.

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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Apr 2018, 11:38

"Easy, easy".
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby gash on ignore » 19 Apr 2018, 11:40

Diamond Dog wrote:This all came about during the time of ridiculous Tory pledge to get immigration down to 10,000 per year. Absolutely unachievable but, hey, some on here probably thought it a great idea too.


From yesterday’s adult debate.
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Apr 2018, 11:42

Toby wrote:I think it's a subject worth discussing, not only because it's in the news (a lot).

In the UK, Immigration is an enormous topic that everyone has an opinion on, but less nuanced perspectives can be castigated.


I'm just confused as to why you think you need to ask if we can have a 'decent' discussion. Why not?
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 19 Apr 2018, 11:42

OK, I'm going to bite first.

At one point does someone who comes to live in a country illegally (i.e they had not been invited, nor had they applied for asylum) become a "citizen"? If they have never had any documentation and have made no attempt to become a "citizen" at any point through applying for citizenship, is it fair to deport them, even though, for example, they had lived here for a number of years, had a family and maybe even started a business.

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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Apr 2018, 11:48

Toby wrote:OK, I'm going to bite first.

At one point does someone who comes to live in a country illegally (i.e they had not been invited, nor had they applied for asylum) become a "citizen"? If they have never had any documentation and have made no attempt to become a "citizen" at any point through applying for citizenship, is it fair to deport them, even though, for example, they had lived here for a number of years, had a family and maybe even started a business.


Is this as regards Windrush, or a general observation?
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 19 Apr 2018, 11:53

No, that's obviously different because they were invited to make up the post-war labour shortage. They had documentation which was then lost/destroyed by the Home Office.

This is regarding people who go to a country and live there illegally. They make no attempt at asylum or obtaining citizenship.

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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Dr Markus » 19 Apr 2018, 11:54

nev gash wrote:Any political discussion here will be tainted by people more interested in point-scoring.

What is point?


What he said.
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby LeBaron » 19 Apr 2018, 12:33

Toby wrote:At one point does someone who comes to live in a country illegally (i.e they had not been invited, nor had they applied for asylum) become a "citizen"?


When the country recognizes them as citizens. Unless you aren’t referring to citizen as a legal term, but as some comparatively amorphous philosophical concept.


Toby wrote:If they have never had any documentation and have made no attempt to become a "citizen" at any point through applying for citizenship, is it fair to deport them, even though, for example, they had lived here for a number of years, had a family and maybe even started a business.


Is it fair!? What does that mean?

Whatever it means, the answer is that it depends. There are so many variables.
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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby Toby » 19 Apr 2018, 12:36

Yes, I agree that was a bit amorphous. I guess I should have said "is it right"

When would a country recognise them as a citizen if they made no attempt to become one?

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Re: The BCB Immigration discussion

Postby The Prof » 19 Apr 2018, 12:37

The difference between immigration and the free movement of Europeans within Europe somehow got lost in the Brexit wars.

There's probably an argument that says citizens of the EU can work in any country they like but if they are unemployed, their benefits are paid to them by their home country. Though I'm not sure how that argument would go!