Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Toby » 10 Apr 2018, 08:40

The most disastrous conflict of the modern era and one with repercussions that are being felt through Europe.

Should we have intervened in 2013? Because at the moment it looks more and more like we should have.

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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Geezee » 10 Apr 2018, 08:58

Do you mean intervened in Syria? International forces have already been there since almost the start of the conflict, which is part of the reason it's such a mess now. Should have stayed away.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Belle Lettre » 10 Apr 2018, 09:18

I think Toby means we should have intervened when the rebel groups were, shall we say, less murky. As it was, not a lot was done and certain elements became ascendant.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Geezee » 10 Apr 2018, 09:39

Belle Lettre wrote:I think Toby means we should have intervened when the rebel groups were, shall we say, less murky. As it was, not a lot was done and certain elements became ascendant.


But things have become more murky precisely because of their intervention, particularly in arming and strengthening the Kurdish resistance, which in turn led to the Turkish response, which in turn led to the Russian response, which in turn has led to the Israeli response...etc etc etc...as usual, the Western intervention underestimated the complexity of the conflict - they were determined to get Assad out, were amazed when that didn't happen, and have been shifting support to different rebel groups ever since, periodically coming full circle to supporting Assad against ISIS, having previously essentialyl supported what became ISIS against Assad etc etc.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Belle Lettre » 10 Apr 2018, 09:51

Well that's true. I suppose I meant at the very beginning of the insurgency, but I'll have to refresh my memory!
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Copehead » 10 Apr 2018, 10:13

Toby wrote:The most disastrous conflict of the modern era and one with repercussions that are being felt through Europe.

Should we have intervened in 2013? Because at the moment it looks more and more like we should have.


There is this bloke called George Santayana......

How many disastrous interventions in the Middle East would convince you this is not a good idea?

Also the idea that we are not involved doesn't withstand much scrutiny; by intervention do you mean full scale land invasion because we appear to have done just about everything short of that already.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby gash on ignore » 10 Apr 2018, 10:39

Should the West have intervened against Copehead?
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Goat Boy » 10 Apr 2018, 12:08

nev gash wrote:Should the West have intervened against Copehead?


Novichok the fucker and blame it on a dodgy mussel
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby gash on ignore » 10 Apr 2018, 12:10

He wouldn’t deign to lower himself to the level of a mere mussel-scoffer.

Tainted Oyster’ll do.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Copehead » 10 Apr 2018, 13:15

Goat Boy wrote:
nev gash wrote:Should the West have intervened against Copehead?


Novichok the fucker and blame it on a dodgy mussel


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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Apr 2018, 13:53

Copehead wrote:My glutes are very sore after doing pirates yesterday


:shock:
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Copehead » 10 Apr 2018, 16:22

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:My glutes are very sore after doing pirates yesterday


:shock:


Female pirates, it is very equal opportunity in the pirate world c.f. Anne Bonny
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby PENK » 10 Apr 2018, 17:33

Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:My glutes are very sore after doing pirates yesterday


:shock:


Female pirates, it is very equal opportunity in the pirate world c.f. Anne Bonny


Actually recent figures show that the gender pay gap in piracy is among the largest on the high seas, while 90% of legendary pirate captains are men.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Jimbo » 10 Apr 2018, 17:37

On The Threshold of War — Paul Craig Roberts
April 9, 2018 | Categories: Articles & Columns | Tags: | Print This Article Print This Article
UPDATE

There is no longer any doubt that the criminally insane government in Washington is driving the world to the last war.

https://www.rt.com/news/423634-unsc-sec ... -chemical/

https://www.rt.com/news/423627-russian- ... cal-douma/

UPDATE:

As Americans we must face the possibility that we have a criminally insane government in Washington that is leading the world to destruction.

A Russian Government Press Release:

False information is being planted about the alleged use of chlorine and other toxic agents by the Syrian government forces. The latest fake news about a chemical attack on Douma was reported yesterday. These reports are again referenced to the notorious White Helmets, which have been proved more than once to be working hand in glove with the terrorists, as well as to other pseudo-humanitarian organisations headquartered in the UK and the US.
We recently warned of the possibility of such dangerous provocations. The goal of these absolutely unsubstantiated lies is to protect the terrorists and the irreconcilable radical opposition that has rejected a political settlement, as well as to justify the possible use of force by external actors.
We have to say once again that military interference in Syria, where Russian forces have been deployed at the request of the legitimate government, under contrived and false pretexts is absolutely unacceptable and can lead to very grave consequences.

http://www.mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/new ... geId=en_GB

This is John Helmer’s interpretation of the warning:

“WHEN THE RULE OF LAW WAS DESTROYED IN SALISBURY, LONDON AND THE HAGUE, AND THE RULE OF FRAUD DECLARED IN WASHINGTON, THAT LEAVES ONLY THE RULE OF FORCE IN THE WORLD. THE STAVKA [the high command of the Russian armed forces] MET IN MOSCOW ON GOOD FRIDAY AND IS READY. THE FOREIGN MINISTRY ANNOUNCED ON SUNDAY “THE GRAVEST CONSEQUENCES”. THIS MEANS ONE AMERICAN SHOT AT A RUSSIAN SOLDIER, THEN WE ARE AT WAR. NOT INFOWAR, NOT CYBERWAR, NOT ECONOMIC WAR, NOT PROXY WAR. WORLD WAR.”

http://johnhelmer.org/?p=17680

I hope that the situation is not this severe.

On The Threshold of War

Paul Craig Roberts

“The Russian view is simple: the West is ruled by a gang of thugs supported by an infinitely lying and hypocritical media while the general public in the West has been hopelessly zombified.” — The Saker

https://russia-insider.com/en/russia-re ... im/ri23019

“The US generals, unlike the US politicians and media and US administration, are risk-averse if the outcome may be catastrophic.” — Gilbert Doctorow

https://russia-insider.com/en/were-not- ... is/ri23024

Above are two of the three most intelligent and reliable Russian experts. The third is Professor Stephen Cohen, who worries, as I do, that an arrogant Washington drowning in hubris is provoking Russia to war.

The Saker has concluded that the Russians have concluded that it has been a mistake to put up with Washington’s lies, insults, and orchestrated events and have decided that if the dumbshit Americans attack Syria, Russia is going to take out the US forces involved.

Doctorow has concluded that as dumbshit as Washington is, the US Joint Chiefs of Staff have more sense and will not go along with an attack on a Russian ally.

I hope that Doctorow is correct. However, with that crazed demented warmonger John Bolton sitting in the White House next to Trump, who enjoys the role of tough guy, I am more scared by The Saker’s reading than I am reasured by Doctorow’s.

There are reports, the validity of which I cannot confirm at this time, that the entirety of the Russian military has been put on high alert, not merely the Russian forces in Syria. See for example: http://defence-blog.com/news/russia-sud ... alert.html

Nikki Haley’s threats against Russia today in the UN do not support Doctorow’s hopes that reason will prevail in Washington. The crazed bitch said that the US will act against the “monster” Assad with or without the UN.

Tough man Trump, sitting next to the crazed warmonger Bolton, declared that the alleged chemical attack in Syria “will be met and it will be met forcefully. We can’t let atrocities like we all witnessed… we can’t let that happen in our world, especially because of the power of the US, we are able to stop it.”

There was NO chemical attack by Syria. I know that for an absolute 100% fact. I would bet my life on it. Yet here is the US president declaring a total non-fact to be something “we all witnssed.” Little wonder that the Russians have concluded that the West is ruled by a gang of thugs supported by an infinitely lying and hypocritical media while the general public in the West has been hopelessly zombified.

If Doctorow is not correct that a sane US Joint Chiefs of Staff will prevail over the crazed President and his National Security Adviser, we are headed for war.

It is a war that the US will not win.

Notice, dear readers, that there is no mention of this pending crisis in the Western media. Instead the media whether CNN or the BBC has as the lead news story the FBI’s raid on Trump’s lawyer:

https://www.cnn.com

http://www.bbc.com/news
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby sneelock » 10 Apr 2018, 17:51

Geezee wrote:...as usual, the Western intervention underestimated the complexity of the conflict - they were determined to get Assad out, were amazed when that didn't happen, and have been shifting support to different rebel groups ever since, periodically coming full circle to supporting Assad against ISIS, having previously essentialyl supported what became ISIS against Assad etc etc.


you can't keep track - even with a scorecard. how are these decisions and alliances made? I'm beginning to think the rolling of multi-sided dice is involved.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Geezee » 10 Apr 2018, 17:56

It does seem to me that the latest mobilisation of rhetoric is politically driven and looks very dangerous. Whether or not there was a chemical attack, the response has been strange - why is Assad suddenly a "monster" that needs stopping, and what is different now from a year ago, or 5 years ago? All the signs, including Trump cancelling his trip to Latin America to oversee a response, are definitely not good.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Geezee » 10 Apr 2018, 18:00

sneelock wrote:
Geezee wrote:...as usual, the Western intervention underestimated the complexity of the conflict - they were determined to get Assad out, were amazed when that didn't happen, and have been shifting support to different rebel groups ever since, periodically coming full circle to supporting Assad against ISIS, having previously essentialyl supported what became ISIS against Assad etc etc.


you can't keep track - even with a scorecard. how are these decisions and alliances made? I'm beginning to think the rolling of multi-sided dice is involved.


Someone will make a very good book or movie about this at some point. I can't think of many other conflicts that are as complicated as this one - yes, plenty of conflicts have seen strange alliances form (including in Yemen right now) but this one really takes the cake in how complex and fluid the fighting has been.

Whether or not you supported the Arab Spring, it's devastating to compare what generally speaking started as peaceful mass mobilisation for democratisation in many countries, to what it turned into in pretty much every single country.
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby sneelock » 10 Apr 2018, 18:24

Geezee wrote:It does seem to me that the latest mobilisation of rhetoric is politically driven and looks very dangerous. Whether or not there was a chemical attack, the response has been strange - why is Assad suddenly a "monster" that needs stopping, and what is different now from a year ago, or 5 years ago? All the signs, including Trump cancelling his trip to Latin America to oversee a response, are definitely not good.


Shit, not even a week ago TRUMP was talking about getting out of there entirely. it's whacked!
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Re: Should the West have intervened against Syria in 2013?

Postby Copehead » 10 Apr 2018, 20:15

PENK wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
:shock:


Female pirates, it is very equal opportunity in the pirate world c.f. Anne Bonny


Actually recent figures show that the gender pay gap in piracy is among the largest on the high seas, while 90% of legendary pirate captains are men.


Surely that is just because of the time out of the workplace taken by female pirates to raise baby pirates.
Also being a pirate Captain is a time consuming job with large amounts of wanton violence, rape, pillage and aaaaring, and how many women are interested in that? This plays havoc with your hair:

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