The Deep State

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Davey the Fat Boy
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The Deep State

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2018, 18:13

http://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/deep-state/

The Deep State is believed to be a clandestine network entrenched inside the government, bureaucracy, intelligence agencies, and other governmental entities. The Deep State supposedly controls state policy behind the scenes, while the democratically-elected process and elected officials are merely figureheads.


Whatever country you are in - what are your thoughts about the possibility that yours or other countries might be in the grips of a shadow government?
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Minnie the Minx » 12 Mar 2018, 18:23

*hurls self from 14th floor car park onto hard concrete below*
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2018, 18:26

Minnie the Minx wrote:*hurls self from 14th floor car park onto hard concrete below*


Maybe the deep state just wants us to think you hurled yourself!
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Re: The Deep State

Postby toomanyhatz » 12 Mar 2018, 18:28

The "Deep State" in the US is the wealthy. It's not very deep. The problem with the whole conspiracy theory involved with the Deep State is that it assumes that it's made up of very organized people all working toward a common goal of subverting our government, when in actuality, it's a bunch of individuals working separately to enhance themselves. Sometimes they have common goals, but thinking of them as an organized group with a unified agenda is counter-productive.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2018, 18:30

Right.

I have no trouble believing in an institutional hive mind of sorts. But the idea that it’s all unified and organized is hard to swallow.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby sloopjohnc » 12 Mar 2018, 22:53

Is the deep state the illuminati? And I thought freemasons had something to do with all of this.

I lose track of these things.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 06:20

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Last edited by Jimbo on 13 Mar 2018, 06:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 06:54

Essentially the "deep state" represents the un-elected but powerful groups who work for the state, i.e., the military, the intelligence agencies, contractors, corporations, think tanks, Wall Street, lobbies, political parties, the media, essentially the military industrial complex about which Eisenhower warned us.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Mar 2018, 07:12

Do they have meetings? Are there dues?
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The Modernist
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Re: The Deep State

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 09:11

toomanyhatz wrote:The "Deep State" in the US is the wealthy. It's not very deep. The problem with the whole conspiracy theory involved with the Deep State is that it assumes that it's made up of very organized people all working toward a common goal of subverting our government, when in actuality, it's a bunch of individuals working separately to enhance themselves. Sometimes they have common goals, but thinking of them as an organized group with a unified agenda is counter-productive.


Whilst I don't subscribe to the idea of a cabal meeting in a darkened room to manipulate the world, I think it would be equally naïve to think of them merely as individuals. I think it highly likely that their are common agendas and aims being shared among the very powerful.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby yomptepi » 13 Mar 2018, 09:13

Isn't it the Civil Service. Those who remain in power even when governments change?
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Re: The Deep State

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 09:14

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Do they have meetings? Are there dues?


Well we know about The Bilderberg Group. There are a number of other organisations as well. What we don't know is what they actually do.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby PENK » 13 Mar 2018, 11:19

The Modernist wrote:There are a number of other organisations as well.


I have heard a lot of online rumours about one group called 'The Doyens', who claim power and influence despite nobody really knowing who they are or why they are relevant.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Dr Markus » 13 Mar 2018, 11:25

The Deep State is believed to be a clandestine network entrenched inside the government, bureaucracy, intelligence agencies, and other governmental entities. The Deep State supposedly controls state policy behind the scenes, while the democratically-elected process and elected officials are merely figureheads.


That's the EU, they're all up in our bizzzness, and they're not brazen as fuck instead of being in the shadows. Though we did sign up for it so...
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Re: The Deep State

Postby LeBaron » 13 Mar 2018, 11:46

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Whatever country you are in - what are your thoughts about the possibility that yours or other countries might be in the grips of a shadow government?


I’ve been a part of a permanent bureaucracy that serves elected officials and while the bureaucracy could certainly be resistant to the whims of elected officials, I’d be a little surprised to learn that any aspect of the “deep State” could have a America or one of its states in its “grips.”

I hate to state the obvious, but this is stuff I’ve seen and lived. Governments are complex institutions. The institutional memory and competence provided by career people in the various branches of the government are absolutely essential to to any hopes that the government will function close to properly. Naturally, people who have dedicated their lives to an organ of government believe in their core purpose and will be resistant to radical and changes to their mission or very purpose. I’m sure that there are millions of federal employees that are just trying to hang on for dear life for the next few years. But most of them are too busy to conspire, it’s just a natural instinct to resist however possible.

The people with the real power are the outside actors with money. And so long as money=speech under the First Amendment, for the most part, they’ll be free to do what they like.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby yomptepi » 13 Mar 2018, 11:46

PENK wrote:
The Modernist wrote:There are a number of other organisations as well.


I have heard a lot of online rumours about one group called 'The Doyens', who claim power and influence despite nobody really knowing who they are or why they are relevant.


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Re: The Deep State

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 13:36

Ex-CIA officers running for Congress as Democrats

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 7cc225339a
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Dr Markus » 13 Mar 2018, 13:48

So they have to run like this?
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Mar 2018, 15:50

The Modernist wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:The "Deep State" in the US is the wealthy. It's not very deep. The problem with the whole conspiracy theory involved with the Deep State is that it assumes that it's made up of very organized people all working toward a common goal of subverting our government, when in actuality, it's a bunch of individuals working separately to enhance themselves. Sometimes they have common goals, but thinking of them as an organized group with a unified agenda is counter-productive.


Whilst I don't subscribe to the idea of a cabal meeting in a darkened room to manipulate the world, I think it would be equally naïve to think of them merely as individuals. I think it highly likely that their are common agendas and aims being shared among the very powerful.


I think this is demonstrably true. But there are generally multiple competing agendas at any given time.

No government agency has been more consequential in the last few years than the FBI. But can anyone craft a narrative to explain how their recent actions regarding the last election conform to any single agenda? Here’s a good article breaking down the forces that led to Comey’s letter re-opening the case against Clinton just 11 days before the election:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanity ... letter/amp

I have no trouble believing that there are powerful institutional currents that pull events into their orbit. But I don’t think anyone controls and manipulates them with a specific outcome in mind.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby sloopjohnc » 13 Mar 2018, 16:13

Very Stable Baron wrote:The people with the real power are the outside actors with money. And so long as money=speech under the First Amendment, for the most part, they’ll be free to do what they like.


Those are my thoughts.

Piggybacking on what Baron wrote, I worked for the largest physicians' association in California for five years. Our organization crafted legislation all the time. And if they didn't craft it themselves, were given first crack at reviewing it. We had lobbyists in Sacramento with big budgets.

That stated, I worked for the organization when pharmaceutical companies were allowed to advertise to the public which is why you now see all those ads on TV nowadays. Previously, pharmaceutical companies could only advertise through drug formularies and doctors and other professionally recognized actors.

The change in law destroyed the medical journal I worked for because pharmaceutical companies started sinking their ad bucks elsewhere.

I got why doctors were mad.They didn't like patients asking or questioning medication choices. It's like if your mechanic suggested you needed to replace the brakes and you questioned him or her on the brand he or she was installing and how he or she was going to do it. Doctors, like mechanics, might say, "Fine, you do it."