'my sources Cannon and Ball tell me....'

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Skripal

Postby Toby » 13 Mar 2018, 16:08

Litvinenko was a former security/intelligence agent who had articulated dirt on Putin. That's why he was murdered.

As far as people know, Skripal did time in Russia for spying and then was released as part of a spy swap. There is the possibility that he may have been attacked because of some mafia/gangland connections that no-one knows about.

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Re: Skripal

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Mar 2018, 16:21

^^^ Could be. Perhaps the timing is causing a perceptual bias.
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Re: Skripal

Postby andymacandy » 13 Mar 2018, 18:27

The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:The problem with this is that there is no conclusive proof that the Russian state was involved.


Something of a relief to the British Government I'd have thought, because if there was conclusive proof what the fuck would you do about it as a response?

Exactly- and I suspect that Putin is perfectly happy to smile that cheesy little enigmatic smile, and let half the world think that he did do it.
Perhaps the best form of retaliation would be for the british press to laugh at the shambolic russian military for losing their nerve gas.
That would really piss Putin off.
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Re: Skripal

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 18:28

Jimbo wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:
The overall issue in general though is that I think that the stance against Russia isn't particularly great, and this is where I side with Corbyn (for once). Peter Hitchens has gone on at length at how the NATO/EU provokes Russia continually, but because we are part of that alliance we tend to think of Russia as this expansionist menace. There is no doubt that Putin marshals a "sinister tyranny" where all sorts of human rights abuses go on, but whether it is the bogeyman that seeks to invade Europe is another story.

One of the arguments Hitchens puts forward is that NATO was set up as a robust defence against the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. Neither of those things exists any more, so why is NATO still going?


Well he has invaded parts of Georgia and the Ukraine. The idea of Putin as an aggressor is hardly a chimera.


:roll:


What I've stated there is fact.

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Re: Skripal

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 18:38

Toby wrote:No-one doubts that he is aggressive. But the crucial thing for us to understand is that a full-blown conventional conflict is not in his interests as much as it is ours. The Russian economy simply couldn't handle it.

NATO has expanded to include most of the EU countries and wants Ukraine too, a former part of the Soviet Union. There is much evidence (again Hitchens is good on this) to suggest that the EU/NATO helped engineer the recent coup in Ukraine that led to the establishment of a new government. How do you think that Russia feels when the most powerful military alliance in the world, one solely created to face down the Soviet Union, is right on its doorstep?

Can you imagine what the reaction might have been if Russia was found to have engineered the recent Catalan independence referendum?


Of course a full blown military conflict with another major European country is not in his interest ( and I hardly think it is in our interest either, so I'm not sure what you meant by that curious remark), but he can engineer conflict without going into a full-scale war. Both bodies have been waving their dicks around but the point with Putin is he needs conflict to maintain his popular image in Russia as the strong leader. He is very much a danger.

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Re: Skripal

Postby Copehead » 13 Mar 2018, 22:11

The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:The problem with this is that there is no conclusive proof that the Russian state was involved.


Something of a relief to the British Government I'd have thought, because if there was conclusive proof what the fuck would you do about it as a response?


Hand back the £3 million in contributions from Putin cronies accepted by the Tory Party over the last 7 years?

Just a thought.

The nerve agent was apparently weapons grade and only available to a couple of countries or their proxies, so unless Trump is attacking us it was Putin.

It was obviously Russia, but with their Troll farms manufacturing outrage, obfuscation and whatabouts along with useful idiots who think their own governments are more dangerous than Putin's Kremlin there is enough sound and fury signifying nothing for Putin not to feel too worried.

Bung the Tories another couple of mill, government inquiry, everyone moves on, job done.
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Re: Skripal

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2018, 05:42

Copehead wrote:
The nerve agent was apparently weapons grade and only available to a couple of countries or their proxies, so unless Trump is attacking us it was Putin.

It was obviously Russia.


New York Times,
By JUDITH MILLER
MAY 25, 1999:

The United States and Uzbekistan have quietly negotiated and are expected to sign a bilateral agreement today to provide American aid in dismantling and decontaminating one of the former Soviet Union’s largest chemical weapons testing facilities, according to Defense Department and Uzbek officials.

Earlier this year, the Pentagon informed Congress that it intends to spend up to $6 million under its Cooperative Threat Reduction program to demilitarize the so-called Chemical Research Institute, in Nukus, Uzbekistan. Soviet defectors and American officials say the Nukus plant was the major research and testing site for a new class of secret, highly lethal chemical weapons called ”Novichok,” which in Russian means ”new guy.”


So who was the last suspect to have the nerve agent?

This case more and more looks like a false flag planted by the forces pushing for war - or an excuse for more money for war - with our latest boogieman Putin.

I think the football mad Brits feel so ickky having the World Cup in Russia they'd do anything to forestall it happening there.
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Re: Skripal

Postby Copehead » 14 Mar 2018, 07:01

Jimbo wrote:
Copehead wrote:
The nerve agent was apparently weapons grade and only available to a couple of countries or their proxies, so unless Trump is attacking us it was Putin.

It was obviously Russia.


New York Times,
By JUDITH MILLER
MAY 25, 1999:

The United States and Uzbekistan have quietly negotiated and are expected to sign a bilateral agreement today to provide American aid in dismantling and decontaminating one of the former Soviet Union’s largest chemical weapons testing facilities, according to Defense Department and Uzbek officials.

Earlier this year, the Pentagon informed Congress that it intends to spend up to $6 million under its Cooperative Threat Reduction program to demilitarize the so-called Chemical Research Institute, in Nukus, Uzbekistan. Soviet defectors and American officials say the Nukus plant was the major research and testing site for a new class of secret, highly lethal chemical weapons called ”Novichok,” which in Russian means ”new guy.”


So who was the last suspect to have the nerve agent?

This case more and more looks like a false flag planted by the forces pushing for war - or an excuse for more money for war - with our latest boogieman Putin.

I think the football mad Brits feel so ickky having the World Cup in Russia they'd do anything to forestall it happening there.


As I said it was the US or Russia.

I think Russia is more likely don't you Jimbo.

It would certainly be a new low in US/UK relations if the US had started poisoning old Russian spies on UK soil for some unknown purpose.

The Russian purpose would seem to be pretty clear.

If you think the UK would poison a number of people with a Russian nerve toxin to stop the Association Football world cup happening in Russia you are more fucking stupid than I took you for, so I will take your post as an attempt at self deprecating humour; trust me it is for the best.
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Re: Skripal

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2018, 07:23

Copehead wrote:
As I said it was the US or Russia.

It was obviously Russia...


No you didn't.

I think Russia is more likely don't you Jimbo? ...The Russian purpose would seem to be pretty clear


No. What benefit would it serve Russia, especially now when tensions have been so hysterically and idiotically trumped up against Russia?

If you think the UK would poison a number of people with a Russian nerve toxin to stop the Association Football world cup happening in Russia you are more fucking stupid than I took you for, so I will take your post as an attempt at self deprecating humour; trust me it is for the best.


Pure speculation on my part but how do you feel about the Cup being held in Russia?

And you avoid the evidence that said poison was last in the hands of the US.

BTW have you heard about the connection between Skripal and Christopher Steele? There is one, you know, but no hard evidence re Skripal poisoning just a whiff of fish.

The Strange Case of the Russian Spy Poisoning
March 13, 2018

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/03/13/t ... poisoning/
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Re: Skripal

Postby Darkness_Fish » 14 Mar 2018, 10:24

Jimbo wrote:Pure speculation on my part but how do you feel about the Cup being held in Russia?

It's an utter disgrace, and I fully support the England team's principled stand to withdraw during the second round.
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Re: Skripal

Postby Insouciant Western People » 14 Mar 2018, 11:45

Toby wrote:One of the arguments Hitchens puts forward is that NATO was set up as a robust defence against the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. Neither of those things exists any more, so why is NATO still going?


NATO came into existence in 1949, six years before the Warsaw Pact was formed. The countries involved had seen the uselessness of of the League of Nations in dealing with Hitler, so even though the UN had been formed in 1945, it made sense to have a military insurance policy.

The obvious answer about why it still exists is that the USSR/Russia wasn't/isn't the only possible heavyweight aggressor that the countries of NATO could face.
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Toby » 14 Mar 2018, 11:48

Yes you're right - I forget that the WP was set up in the 50s. Too much playing of Twilight Struggle.

The reason it exists still is because it is in the collective interest of all countries (especially those who struggle to contribute anything worthwhile) to remain part of a military alliance that has the USA as the main part of it.

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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2018, 12:05

Cui bono?

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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Minnie the Minx » 14 Mar 2018, 12:14

George Galloway :D :
Jimbo doesn't even know who he is.
Not that he cares much. He just likes that he is a little LOUD.
Poor little Jimbo.
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2018, 12:19

Minnie the Minx wrote:George Galloway :D :
Jimbo doesn't even know who he is.


Who he is is unimportant. What he says is.

I do know he was one of the first politicians who called out Blair, Bush and the Iraq war deceptions and how it was all a "pack of lies."
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Insouciant Western People » 14 Mar 2018, 12:22

On the basis of that, George seems to need a swift and sizeable dose of Senokot.

In both senses of the expression.
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Minnie the Minx » 14 Mar 2018, 12:24

Jimbo wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:George Galloway :D :
Jimbo doesn't even know who he is.


Who he is is unimportant. What he says is.

I do know he was one of the first politicians who called out Blair, Bush and the Iraq war deceptions and how it was all a "pack of lies."


Bless your heart.
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Insouciant Western People » 14 Mar 2018, 12:29

I'll say this for George, he's very reliable as a bellwether of how and what not to think.
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2018, 12:37

Nick wrote:I'll say this for George, he's very reliable as a bellwether of how and what not to think.


Bon mots don't cut it. What did he say that was so wrong? Did or did not the police officer die at the Skripal's home? Is not his argument valid, like mine, that Russia is not so stupid to pull off a crime like this at this time? Does UK/US not have a possible motive to set up Russia furthering the antagonism and war fever?
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Re: Skripal AH FUCK NOW JIMBO

Postby Toby » 14 Mar 2018, 12:41

I think there is a point there.

I'm not totally convinced that it is in the best interests of the Russian state to do something like this, especially when it has been botched so badly. As I've said before, Litvinenko was different. We just don't know enough about Skripal yet.