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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Jimbo » 08 Apr 2018, 11:52

Uh fucking oh.

Syria war: At least 70 killed in suspected chemical attack in Douma http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43686157

First of all, God help any victims. It's a terrible way to die.

Secondly, I don't trust this BBC report, knowing what I know about Syria, especially the anti-Assad/Russia propaganda, not to mention the misreporting around the Skrypal affair. Hands up if you have at least heard that the White Helmets - from whom the on the scene reports supposedly come - are a suspect organization, that they are a construct of the US/UK backed "moderate rebels" and not a non-partisan group of do gooders. Well, even if the White Helmets are legit (they're not), the BBC reports makes no parenthetical remark that these guys are suspected of being fakes, like no one at the BBC reads the internet alternative news sites. Also, the BBC reports uncritically about previous Syrian government nerve/gas attacks with no mention of them being fakes or rebel false flag attacks, reports and debunks of which are all over the alternative news. Wait and see how many alternative news reporters come onto the BBC to give their side of the story. Don't hold your breath.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Rayge » 08 Apr 2018, 12:48

It is all a load of bollocks, isn't it, the whole hysterical over-reaction?
Food poisoning sounds about right; it's actually an anti-conspiracy theory, establishing that shit happens sometimes without anyone planning it.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Samoan » 08 Apr 2018, 13:02

It was likely to be a nerve agent.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/06/myth-busting-why-didn-t-the-skripals-die-on-the-spot

The bottom line is that nerve agents are killers in the absence of serious medical care, but their track record as killers is actually quite poor if some medical care is given. There are a number of cases where people were exposed to very high doses of nerve agents and survived with aggressive medical interventions.

It is clear that the Skripals and the police constable received serious and relevant medical interventions. The phrase 'no antidote to Novichoks' has been used and taken seriously out of context here. It's true that there’s no specific antidote to the Novichoks in the sense of an antitoxin or antivenin as a direct attack on the offending chemical. But we can tackle the harm they do.


In the case of Salisbury, atropine is specifically referenced in the hospital trust's publically-available emergency plans. There’s nothing odd or strange about atropine being available in Salisbury. NHS ambulance services and hospital A&E services have been worrying about chemical terrorism for decades now. Excellent training is being given and numerous exercises have been held. People should be happy, not shocked, that training and protocols kicked in.


Other medical measures are important. There is a category of drugs called oximes. Their usefulness varies from nerve agent to nerve agent, and varies with the time between exposure and administration of drugs. Their usefulness in Novichok situations is not well established. Anticonvulsants like diazepam are useful as well, and would be relevant in Novichok poisoning. Supportive care to maintain open airways, assist breathing (if necessary, using ventilators) and maintain circulation are critical to survival, but are basic skills for any serious hospital.

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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Minnie Cheddars » 08 Apr 2018, 13:22

Rayge wrote:It is all a load of bollocks, isn't it, the whole hysterical over-reaction?
Food poisoning sounds about right; it's actually an anti-conspiracy theory, establishing that shit happens sometimes without anyone planning it.


Do you think the detective that went to help them had dinner with them first?
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Rayge » 08 Apr 2018, 15:57

Cheeky Cheeky Naughty Sneaky wrote:
Rayge wrote:It is all a load of bollocks, isn't it, the whole hysterical over-reaction?
Food poisoning sounds about right; it's actually an anti-conspiracy theory, establishing that shit happens sometimes without anyone planning it.


Do you think the detective that went to help them had dinner with them first?


I've no idea: I wasn't there
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Minnie Cheddars » 08 Apr 2018, 16:50

Rayge wrote:
Cheeky Cheeky Naughty Sneaky wrote:
Rayge wrote:It is all a load of bollocks, isn't it, the whole hysterical over-reaction?
Food poisoning sounds about right; it's actually an anti-conspiracy theory, establishing that shit happens sometimes without anyone planning it.


Do you think the detective that went to help them had dinner with them first?


I've no idea: I wasn't there


Well - if you thought food poisoning sounds about right, wouldn't the detective also have had to eaten whatever they did?
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Rayge » 08 Apr 2018, 18:33

Minnie the Minx wrote:
Rayge wrote:
Cheeky Cheeky Naughty Sneaky wrote:
Do you think the detective that went to help them had dinner with them first?


I've no idea: I wasn't there


Well - if you thought food poisoning sounds about right, wouldn't the detective also have had to eaten whatever they did?

Where is this detective? Why hasn't he told all? How quickly did he recover? Maybe it was something else he had to explain his symptoms, whatever they were? If he somehow 'caught' whatever it was from just helping the Skripals, how come none of the other people involved – medical staff, police, passers-by – were affected at all, even as mildly as he had been, as they would have been by a weaponized toxin.
I haven't been following this in the papers or on TV because I stopped doing that 20 years ago, at least in part because of bullshit oogly-boogly moral panics such as this, but I did read the story Jimbo linked, and that makes perfect sense to me. Occam's razor and all that. It's all a load of supposition and hot air, hardly any facts to go on bar two people got seriously ill 40 minutes after a meal of seafood risotto, and are apparently well on the way to complete recovery with excellent medical care. If Skripal had not been a former exchanged agent, I don't suppose anyone would have made the link to foul play at all, and then made the leap from the idea that they had been exposed to a paralyzing nerve toxin (which is after all what botulism and various other food toxins are) to the notion that this was created in a lab and administered in some deliberate fashion.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Minnie Cheddars » 08 Apr 2018, 18:48

Rayge wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:
Rayge wrote:
I've no idea: I wasn't there


Well - if you thought food poisoning sounds about right, wouldn't the detective also have had to eaten whatever they did?

Where is this detective? Why hasn't he told all? How quickly did he recover? Maybe it was something else he had to explain his symptoms, whatever they were? If he somehow 'caught' whatever it was from just helping the Skripals, how come none of the other people involved – medical staff, police, passers-by – were affected at all, even as mildly as he had been, as they would have been by a weaponized toxin.
I haven't been following this in the papers or on TV because I stopped doing that 20 years ago, at least in part because of bullshit oogly-boogly moral panics such as this, but I did read the story Jimbo linked, and that makes perfect sense to me. Occam's razor and all that. It's all a load of supposition and hot air, hardly any facts to go on bar two people got seriously ill 40 minutes after a meal of seafood risotto, and are apparently well on the way to complete recovery with excellent medical care. If Skripal had not been a former exchanged agent, I don't suppose anyone would have made the link to foul play at all, and then made the leap from the idea that they had been exposed to a paralyzing nerve toxin (which is after all what botulism and various other food toxins are) to the notion that this was created in a lab and administered in some deliberate fashion.


I have no idea what I think of the entire episode, but the OR approach would perhaps be more of an option if I could believe that an entire restaurant served one portion of food to one set of diners and nobody else.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Jimbo » 09 Apr 2018, 12:44



Pleased to see some of you coming around to seeing things my way. You may not be ready to go the full Jimbo but keep in mind that this incident is but one in a long series of media/government/corporate conspiracies. If you see how the alternative media are the lie-exposing truth tellers in the Skrypal case you Brits can then stop trusting the Murdoch owned Times, the HSBC controlled Guardian and the government controlled BBC. As far as US media go it's pretty much Operation Mockingbird all the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

You may be seeing reports of Assad gassing his own citizens again in those media. Don't trust it. It's bullshit, fake news, propaganda. Read it if you like but then go to the alternative sites to see how parsimoniously, how selectively the mainstream media are doling out the information. You could do a lot better by going to the dreaded RT. They may go a little lighter on Putin critiques but they go quite forcefully and truthfully at our current events.

I also recommend 21st Century Wire, UK Column, OffGuardian and, of course, Consortium News.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Rayge » 09 Apr 2018, 14:24

Minnie the Minx wrote:I have no idea what I think of the entire episode, but the OR approach would perhaps be more of an option if I could believe that an entire restaurant served one portion of food to one set of diners and nobody else.


They shared a seafood risotto, apparently. One bad mussel would do it.
Incidentally, also apparently, the restaurant is still closed.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Rayge » 09 Apr 2018, 14:30

Jimbo wrote:Pleased to see some of you coming around to seeing things my way. You may not be ready to go the full Jimbo but keep in mind that this incident is but one in a long series of media/government/corporate conspiracies.


Oh, I would not go that far Jimbo. I see it as an example of typical opportunism/stupidity/venality of the political classes that I've rejected for a couple of decades. It isn't a conspiracy. There's no true story, no mastermind, no cabal, just a lot of wankers jizzing in the air, arses being covered, spin being applied.
The only sensible reaction to this sort of nonsense is to ignore it.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Minnie Cheddars » 09 Apr 2018, 14:43

Rayge wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Pleased to see some of you coming around to seeing things my way. You may not be ready to go the full Jimbo but keep in mind that this incident is but one in a long series of media/government/corporate conspiracies.


Oh, I would not go that far Jimbo. I see it as an example of typical opportunism/stupidity/venality of the political classes that I've rejected for a couple of decades. It isn't a conspiracy. There's no true story, no mastermind, no cabal, just a lot of wankers jizzing in the air, arses being covered, spin being applied.
The only sensible reaction to this sort of nonsense is to ignore it.


Ah!

When are you planning on ignoring it? :D
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Jimbo » 09 Apr 2018, 15:19

Rayge wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Pleased to see some of you coming around to seeing things my way. You may not be ready to go the full Jimbo but keep in mind that this incident is but one in a long series of media/government/corporate conspiracies.


Oh, I would not go that far Jimbo.


Gimme an inch I'll take the mile. :)
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Rayge » 09 Apr 2018, 15:57

Minnie the Minx wrote:
Rayge wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Pleased to see some of you coming around to seeing things my way. You may not be ready to go the full Jimbo but keep in mind that this incident is but one in a long series of media/government/corporate conspiracies.


Oh, I would not go that far Jimbo. I see it as an example of typical opportunism/stupidity/venality of the political classes that I've rejected for a couple of decades. It isn't a conspiracy. There's no true story, no mastermind, no cabal, just a lot of wankers jizzing in the air, arses being covered, spin being applied.
The only sensible reaction to this sort of nonsense is to ignore it.


Ah!

When are you planning on ignoring it? :D

I continue to ignore it on the TV news (never, ever watch) and in the newspapers, as I have done since the whole affair started. I had no idea what the thread was about until it got to the second page or so.
It would be rude of me to ignore what my dear friends have to say about it though, and while I have been fascinated by their knowledge of geopolitics, tradecraft, and the workings of whatever the current criminals have instead of brains, I nonetheless felt that it would have likewise been socially remiss of me not to have pointed out that they had indeed, at the point of my posting, delighted us enough with their insights, and that maybe we could step back from the game of Virtual Risk and ponder the possibility that a plethora of panties had been groundlessly bunched.
Plus, I suspect that some people I have on ignore were being beastly to Jeremy.
And since that first post, I have returned only at your request, by quoting what I wrote ;)
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Samoan » 09 Apr 2018, 19:11

* Stephen Fry has left the building *

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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Jimbo » 09 Apr 2018, 22:26

While reading an article which posits that the Skrypal affair was a ruse to eject Russian embassy staff (the largest embassy ejection in history BTW) thereby somehow sparking a military intervention to settle Russia's hash in Ukraine and to retake Crimea there was this parenthetical bit of info I'd never heard about Brexit.

Theresa May’s slow-motion collapsing Tory government – now even challenged for its fraudulent Brexit referendum protecting the big London banks from EU regulation…


https://www.globalresearch.ca/old-prete ... es/5633802

What I gather from this is that the referendum was a "false flag" proposed to protect the London banks from EU regulations. They knew the proposal would excite the less-Euro enthralled populists, Britain first-ers, the anti-immigration folk plus attract the anything for a change crowd, and that they bet it would pass. I have to assume the banks' secrets are safe for now in the bosom of London.

First of all, I hope we don't get into a war now in Ukraine but this bit about Brexit does ring my Jimbo. Had any of you ever heard this angle? I wonder what you think.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Jimbo » 10 Apr 2018, 07:03



Thrilling to see the US delegation walk out when the Syrian delegate begins to speak...Not. It's clear to me watching this video that the US wants to believe there was an Assad chemical attack rather than actually know, even when the Russian delegate says they went in and found no evidence of an attack.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Apr 2018, 08:48

Rayge wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:I have no idea what I think of the entire episode, but the OR approach would perhaps be more of an option if I could believe that an entire restaurant served one portion of food to one set of diners and nobody else.


They shared a seafood risotto, apparently. One bad mussel would do it.

Incidentally, also apparently, the restaurant is still closed.


The most obvious and effective rebuttal of the conjecture about food poisoning is that traces of Novichok were found at the pub and the restaurant where the Skripals had recently been.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Deebank » 10 Apr 2018, 09:36

K wrote:
Rayge wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:I have no idea what I think of the entire episode, but the OR approach would perhaps be more of an option if I could believe that an entire restaurant served one portion of food to one set of diners and nobody else.


They shared a seafood risotto, apparently. One bad mussel would do it.
Incidentally, also apparently, the restaurant is still closed.

And the policeman nicked one mussel from the plate.


Well, food poisoning is hardly a rare thing.
There is a large element of hysteria attached to this whole episode.
Would any of it stand up in court I wonder?

I still reckon Putin done it though.
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Re: 'like Jim Morrison sang...'

Postby Copehead » 10 Apr 2018, 09:55

Deebank wrote:
I still reckon Putin done it though.


Of course it is; got to love the way the British government has fucked it all up by having an egotistical dick like Johnson in charge; a man who has winged everything in his life due to his ego and family and thinks he can wing being the Foreign Secretary during a major international crisis.

So far I'd say the evidence is he can't; but it will be funny to see Nick and Toby defend this clown car cluster fuck or try and pin the problems on Corbyn.
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