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Re: Skripal

Postby Toby » 13 Mar 2018, 10:08

It would not serve Russia's interests to attack anyone. Why would they? What have they got to gain from a conventional military conflict with Europe?

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Re: Skripal

Postby Belle Lettre » 13 Mar 2018, 10:17

I meant the UK, in terms of the vast array of reprisals open to it against such a lame duck as you seem to think the Russians are.
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Re: Skripal

Postby Toby » 13 Mar 2018, 10:24

The problem with this is that there is no conclusive proof that the Russian state was involved. Litvinenko was poisoned with Polonium (My old boss was in the Itsu cafe when the assassins met him). If they were state-sponsored assassins, then why are they still alive 5 days later?

I think if there is conclusive evidence that the Russian State was involved, then some sort of robust defence of what we are about needs to be demonstrated. Expelling a shitload of diplomats usually does the trick.

The overall issue in general though is that I think that the stance against Russia isn't particularly great, and this is where I side with Corbyn (for once). Peter Hitchens has gone on at length at how the NATO/EU provokes Russia continually, but because we are part of that alliance we tend to think of Russia as this expansionist menace. There is no doubt that Putin marshals a "sinister tyranny" where all sorts of human rights abuses go on, but whether it is the bogeyman that seeks to invade Europe is another story.

One of the arguments Hitchens puts forward is that NATO was set up as a robust defence against the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. Neither of those things exists any more, so why is NATO still going?

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Re: Skripal

Postby Toby » 13 Mar 2018, 10:32



This is worth a watch. Hitchens, an ex-communist who lived in the Soviet Union for a few years, is one person I think who has a nuanced view of Russia today.

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Re: Skripal

Postby PENK » 13 Mar 2018, 11:17

Where's Jimbo?
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Re: Skripal

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 12:49

PENK wrote:Where's Jimbo?



What you fall to realize is that Russia is Bizzaro world where up is down and nonsense is common sense. Putin figured at a time when tensions are at a peak between the west and Russia this would be a perfect time to sneak into Britain and attempt to assassinate a former Russian spy.
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Re: Skripal

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 13:00

Toby wrote:The problem with this is that there is no conclusive proof that the Russian state was involved.


Something of a relief to the British Government I'd have thought, because if there was conclusive proof what the fuck would you do about it as a response?

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Re: Skripal

Postby Belle Lettre » 13 Mar 2018, 13:08

The White House avoids blaming the Russians.
Rex Tillerson says it looks as though it was the Russians.
Rex Tillerson has, apparently, just been fired.
Last edited by Belle Lettre on 13 Mar 2018, 13:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skripal

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 13:10

Belle Lettre wrote:Red Tillerson has, apparently, just been fired.


His christian name probably didn't help.

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Re: Skripal

Postby Belle Lettre » 13 Mar 2018, 13:12

:lol:

:(
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Re: Skripal

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 13 Mar 2018, 13:15

The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:The problem with this is that there is no conclusive proof that the Russian state was involved.


Something of a relief to the British Government I'd have thought, because if there was conclusive proof what the fuck would you do about it as a response?


I'd love to know.

Nice to see people responding to the thread, finally. What took you?
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Re: Skripal

Postby Belle Lettre » 13 Mar 2018, 13:18

And miss a chance to annoy you?
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Re: Skripal

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 13 Mar 2018, 13:19

:lol:

I'm too amused by this to be annoyed right now:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rson-moron
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Re: Skripal

Postby The Modernist » 13 Mar 2018, 13:23

Toby wrote:
The overall issue in general though is that I think that the stance against Russia isn't particularly great, and this is where I side with Corbyn (for once). Peter Hitchens has gone on at length at how the NATO/EU provokes Russia continually, but because we are part of that alliance we tend to think of Russia as this expansionist menace. There is no doubt that Putin marshals a "sinister tyranny" where all sorts of human rights abuses go on, but whether it is the bogeyman that seeks to invade Europe is another story.

One of the arguments Hitchens puts forward is that NATO was set up as a robust defence against the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. Neither of those things exists any more, so why is NATO still going?


Well he has invaded parts of Georgia and the Ukraine. The idea of Putin as an aggressor is hardly a chimera.

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Re: Skripal

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 13:29

The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:
The overall issue in general though is that I think that the stance against Russia isn't particularly great, and this is where I side with Corbyn (for once). Peter Hitchens has gone on at length at how the NATO/EU provokes Russia continually, but because we are part of that alliance we tend to think of Russia as this expansionist menace. There is no doubt that Putin marshals a "sinister tyranny" where all sorts of human rights abuses go on, but whether it is the bogeyman that seeks to invade Europe is another story.

One of the arguments Hitchens puts forward is that NATO was set up as a robust defence against the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. Neither of those things exists any more, so why is NATO still going?


Well he has invaded parts of Georgia and the Ukraine. The idea of Putin as an aggressor is hardly a chimera.


:roll:
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Re: Skripal

Postby Toby » 13 Mar 2018, 14:08

No-one doubts that he is aggressive. But the crucial thing for us to understand is that a full-blown conventional conflict is not in his interests as much as it is ours. The Russian economy simply couldn't handle it.

NATO has expanded to include most of the EU countries and wants Ukraine too, a former part of the Soviet Union. There is much evidence (again Hitchens is good on this) to suggest that the EU/NATO helped engineer the recent coup in Ukraine that led to the establishment of a new government. How do you think that Russia feels when the most powerful military alliance in the world, one solely created to face down the Soviet Union, is right on its doorstep?

Can you imagine what the reaction might have been if Russia was found to have engineered the recent Catalan independence referendum?

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Re: Skripal

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 15:20

Toby wrote:No-one doubts that he is aggressive.


After that litany of American interventions why mention it?

I think his latest roll out of new weapons is to say to NATO you can try but it'll cost you a lot. That's not aggression that's a smart defence.
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Re: Skripal

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Mar 2018, 15:54

Toby wrote:The problem with this is that there is no conclusive proof that the Russian state was involved.

No. But who else wanted him dead?
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Re: Skripal

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2018, 16:07

Image
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Re: Skripal

Postby Toby » 13 Mar 2018, 16:08

Litvinenko was a former security/intelligence agent who had articulated dirt on Putin. That's why he was murdered.

As far as people know, Skripal did time in Russia for spying and then was released as part of a spy swap. There is the possibility that he may have been attacked because of some mafia/gangland connections that no-one knows about.