Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Rayge » 09 Mar 2018, 12:49

Diamond Dog wrote:Lighten up Rayge.


No. I am precisely as effulgent as I need to be.
And of course I realize you were not being entirely serious, but that's irrelevant to my point; I still find the whole farrago ugly and dreary, aesthetically unpleasing and not remotely funny. Please understand that I'm not saying it's only you, or that you are the worst offender – far from it; your post was just a peg to hang it on when I've been stewing on it for a couple of years – or that copehead needs me to defend him when he quite clearly really enjoys this sort of thing ;) .

Diamond Dog wrote:I'll ignore the frankly unnecessary and childish sideswipes too.


That's very big of you.
Perhaps you can point out what they were, so I can avoid putting you to the trouble of being magnanimous about them in future, and substitute more grown up terms such as dog-tosser.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 09 Mar 2018, 13:08

What a buzz kill man,
You don't like me...do you?

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2018, 13:17

Rayge wrote:Perhaps you can point out what they were, so I can avoid putting you to the trouble of being magnanimous about them in future, and substitute more grown up terms such as dog-tosser.


Is this the five minute argument ...........? ;)

Shall we agree to move on?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Rayge » 09 Mar 2018, 13:26

yomptepi wrote:What a buzz kill man,


Sorry, ursine. Here's three more to replace it

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 20:27

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
How can you have a debate on a subject if the proposer or the opposer is not allowed to speak. If a speaker is invited to a campus to debate a proposal, how is it in any way reasonable to then refuse the right to make their position?. Having a small group of students disrupt the debate is hardly an endorsement of free speech. Surely the intelligent thing to do would be to argue the points with the speaker, tather than smash the place up. You do have a very perverted idea of what constitutes being thick. Just for your information Will.

"A debate is a form of public discourse; it is a formal direct oral contest or competition in argumentation between two or more people on a defined proposition at a specific time. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, debate is “a formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward and which usually ends with a vote.” (The Oxford English Dictionary, 3rd Edition, Edited by J. Simpson and E. Weiner. Clarendon Press, 2010).

A debate, therefore, is a formal, disciplined, and rule-governed contest/competition that is conducted within a set framework"

There is a word for stifling debate, and it is word we are going to be hearing a lot more of as Momentum get their filthy paws deeper and deeper into our children. worrying times for us all.


Universities have always no platformed people they do it every time the decide to invite one person rather than another.

It is just that the right decided to turn it into a thing when student Unions decided they didn't want their type on their premises.

Again no ones freedom of speech is being curtailed here.

If silly little spotty right wingers wish to invite some alt-right provocateur along to talk to them about stringing up gays from lamp posts they are perfectly able to rent out the room above a local pub as long as the Licensee doesn't no platform them as well.

No one has right to hire a student union being either it is private property not Speaker's Corner.

As many people have pointed out what is at issue here is not debate it is deliberate provocation of people who aren't interested in listening to your drivel. You don't have to debate everything and some things aren't worth the effort.

You can't force people to debate what ever cranky rubbish passes for thought on the right if they don't want to, that is their right, you also do not have a right to be listened to without retort.

You have a right to speak not a right to be heard, I don't think I can make it clearer than that, it appears students are not interested in listening to you, it looks like the youth of today are getting things right.


I am in little doubt who the fascist is here.

We are not only talking about the right, as I have already said, and you have already ignored. Anything which is considered politically incorrect is stifled.You cannot win this argument just by saying it is OK to No Platform the right, because it is not only the right who are being targeted. The problem I have with these momentum fueled activists is that they are deciding what is and what is not suitable for a debate in a university library. What about those students who actually have an interest in being informed , rather than just opinionated? Do they not have the right to challenge and clarify their thoughts on the subjects. Or are they beholden to a few self proclaimed thought police, who think they have a monopoly on what is up for debate. Be that the radicalisation of the young, abortion, genetics, pollution, global warming or Genetically modified food. Do we expect our young to just toe the momentum line on these subjects?


Yomp is spot on here.

A student union should allow on to campus any speaker who some (however few) students want to invite to be heard, and to allow their voices to be heard, out of basic principle and respect for free speech. It's not for the minority voices (because as any fule kno they always are the minority) of a student union to determine who should and should not be allowed to speak on campus. Access to campus facilities should not be controlled by a minority of self-appointed bien pensants, of any political persuasion. If some students wish to invite controversial speakers, be they far left or far right, let them. A university is a place perhaps more than any other, where debate should be had. In a university, as much as, if not more, than anywhere else, there should be the right to speak up for any opinion. If other people oppose them then they may exercise their rights to protest outside of these events, or to enter and debate the people concerned. These are basic principles of democracy and civil society. To paraphrase Voltaire, if you believe in free speech and in open debate, you should stand up for the rights of those you abhor to be given freedom to speak. And then you, in turn, are given your go to annihilate their stupid arguments. This is how it works. It's not perfect by any means, but it's always better than the alternatives.
Last edited by Insouciant Western People on 09 Mar 2018, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 20:35

As Andrew Neil recently said, "what's the point of a university if you don't allow a variety of views to be expressed?"

Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2018, 20:57

What is the point of a university if students can’t have these battles over what should and shouldn’t be heard/promoted/protested?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 21:07

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:What is the point of a university if students can’t have these battles over what should and shouldn’t be heard/promoted/protested?


They can have these battles.

But these battles should be fought by people having debate, freely and openly, in public spaces.

Not by masked and black-clad or tiki-torch wielding thugs intimidating others and stopping people from speaking, whatever side of the political divide they cleave to.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2018, 21:25

I’m fine with that. But the video you posted wasn’t simply decrying thugs. The debate was about whether colleges should allow speakers of all positions, even when large numbers of students object.

I think it’s all high-minded and well-meaning to opine that colleges should allow all points of view, but to impose that on them is ultimately paternalistic.

Better to allow students to play out the whole issue on their own terms.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 21:35

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I’m fine with that. But the video you posted wasn’t simply decrying thugs. The debate was about whether colleges should allow speakers of all positions, even when large numbers of students object.

I think it’s all high-minded and well-meaning to opine that colleges should allow all points of view, but to impose that on them is ultimately paternalistic.

Better to allow students to play out the whole issue on their own terms.


I think that's a slippery slope. To cite an extreme example, would the students of Humboldt university in 1938 have allowed a Jewish speaker to make their voice heard? Opposite the opera platz where a few years earlier, academics, librarians and students burned the books of authors whose opinions were deemed to be verdammt?

A minority opinion is not always, nor necessarily, a wrong opinion.

I think there are few things more appropriate in a university than to allow all voices to be heard. I don't think that's 'imposing' anything on students. I think it's encouraging them to mature, to deal with conflicting and challenging ideas, to develop their own thoughts and opinions, and to debate.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 22:26

yomptepi wrote:
Rayge wrote:
There's plenty of reasons for thinking Copehead is tiresome - his musical taste, his fondness for Bugry, his Welshness and his love of a ruck, personal insults and flame-thrower duels, .


You didn't mention the tax dodging.


I don't indulge in tax dodging I just have a different tax code to you; I actually voluntarily pay N.I. when I don't have to; and a jumped up builder accusing anyone else of tax dodging is rich.

And I am not sure I like the sound of bugry unless it is just an anagram of rugby in which case I will point out that I have never been a member of a team that indulged in all that public school rugger bugger nonsense; my school, university and club teams were all resolutely normal with little or no public school boy membership thank god.

In many parts of the UK - the SW, East Midlands and Wales most notably - rugby is a game for the masses.

Other than that, and the anti-Welsh racism :x , thank you for your support Ray.

I think it is sad that my genuine enthusiasm for the political process in this country should be considered a reason I should feel humiliation, shame on those people, shame I say!
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Toby » 09 Mar 2018, 22:29

The shutting down of alternative opinions only helps to calcify what to think, rather than how to think.

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 22:38

Toby wrote:The shutting down of alternative opinions only helps to calcify what to think, rather than how to think.


I'm pretty sure that is one of those sentences that looks good but is in fact meaningless piffle. You should put it on a poster of a dog running across a beach at sunset.

Do you think debating the Brown Shirts in 1930 would have served in any way to stop Fascism?

I think your view point is idealistic to the point of naivety.

There are many questions where open debate is vital and there are some where it is pointless or even harmful, refusing to acknowledge this is putting facile dogma over reason.

Debating racism in our Universities is important inviting Britain First to put their side is stupid.

Your position lacks any nuance or flexibility and for that reason is useless.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Rayge » 09 Mar 2018, 22:45

Copehead wrote:And I am not sure I like the sound of bugry unless it is just an anagram of rugby in which case I will point out that I have never been a member of a team that indulged in all that public school rugger bugger nonsense; my school, university and club teams were all resolutely normal with little or no public school boy membership thank god.

In many parts of the UK - the SW, East Midlands and Wales most notably - rugby is a game for the masses.


I don't doubt it (although I do deplore it). I just happen to have good personal reasons for hating it – not quite as much as I despise beetroot, but more than I do, say, the Woolwich Strollers – and I used to have quite the routine about it that I developed for the amusement of fellow egg-fondling deniers and the befuddlement of the charioteering twerps braying at Harry Twickers (any hapless Americans reading this far will surely reach for their translation apps at this point). The stance has become an ingrained part of my persona.

Copehead wrote:Other than that, and the anti-Welsh racism :x , thank you for your support Ray.


You're welcome.
And, as I understand it from little bro, not actually Welsh ;)
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 22:57

Nick wrote:[
A student union should allow on to campus any speaker who some (however few) students want to invite to be heard, and to allow their voices to be heard, out of basic principle and respect for free speech. It's not for the minority voices (because as any fule kno they always are the minority) of a student union to determine who should and should not be allowed to speak on campus. Access to campus facilities should not be controlled by a minority of self-appointed bien pensants, of any political persuasion. If some students wish to invite controversial speakers, be they far left or far right, let them. A university is a place perhaps more than any other, where debate should be had. In a university, as much as, if not more, than anywhere else, there should be the right to speak up for any opinion. If other people oppose them then they may exercise their rights to protest outside of these events, or to enter and debate the people concerned. These are basic principles of democracy and civil society. To paraphrase Voltaire, if you believe in free speech and in open debate, you should stand up for the rights of those you abhor to be given freedom to speak. And then you, in turn, are given your go to annihilate their stupid arguments. This is how it works. It's not perfect by any means, but it's always better than the alternatives.


The idea that a handful of people on campus should be able to make a democratic body like a Student Union accept someone on to their property who the majority find abhorrent is very anti-democratic even for you Nick, approaching fascistic I'd say.

Well done for spectacularly undermining any case you thought you had to make.

Why do you hate democracy so much?

I look forward to you inviting Britain First skinheads around to your gaff to have a quite chat about where they are going wrong.

You are all for forcing others to do things like this perhaps you should step up and show us an example

Like Toby you pontificate from a position of smug moral superiority on matters you'd run a mile from in person.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 23:01

Rayge wrote:
Copehead wrote:And I am not sure I like the sound of bugry unless it is just an anagram of rugby in which case I will point out that I have never been a member of a team that indulged in all that public school rugger bugger nonsense; my school, university and club teams were all resolutely normal with little or no public school boy membership thank god.

In many parts of the UK - the SW, East Midlands and Wales most notably - rugby is a game for the masses.


I don't doubt it (although I do deplore it). I just happen to have good personal reasons for hating it – not quite as much as I despise beetroot, but more than I do, say, the Woolwich Strollers – and I used to have quite the routine about it that I developed for the amusement of fellow egg-fondling deniers and the befuddlement of the charioteering twerps braying at Harry Twickers (any hapless Americans reading this far will surely reach for their translation apps at this point). The stance has become an ingrained part of my persona.

Copehead wrote:Other than that, and the anti-Welsh racism :x , thank you for your support Ray.


You're welcome.
And, as I understand it from little bro, not actually Welsh ;)


British identity is a moveable feast Ray, we are what we say we are. Just look at the numbers of people who claim they are Irish because they drank a pint of Guinness once. Pob Hwyl!
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 23:11

Nick wrote:As Andrew Neil recently said, "what's the point of a university if you don't allow a variety of views to be expressed?"



You have to say that in that case Neil is a masterful deployer of a strawman.

Do you think universities don't allow a variety of views where necessary?

Do you think a variety of views need to be expressed on the mechanisms of evolution or just the one we currently hold as explaining the evidence best.

Do we need a variety of views on race from the biologically accepted explanation that it is a human construct as there is more genetic variation within the African population than between African populations and those of other parts of the world from Patagonia to Greenland through to an alt-right biological reading of the genetic superiority of the White race that make them cleverer than Blacks using dodgy IQ data?

I think what you and Mr Neil mean is you want your views discussed at University and you don't like it if you think they aren't.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 23:11

Nick wrote:As Andrew Neil recently said, "what's the point of a university if you don't allow a variety of views to be expressed?"



You have to say that in that case Neil is a masterful deployer of a strawman.

Do you think universities don't allow a variety of views where necessary?

Do you think a variety of views need to be expressed on the mechanisms of evolution or just the one we currently hold as explaining the evidence best.

Do we need a variety of views on race from the biologically accepted explanation that it is a human construct as there is more genetic variation within the African population than between African populations and those of other parts of the world from Patagonia to Greenland through to an alt-right biological reading of the genetic superiority of the White race that make them cleverer than Blacks using dodgy IQ data?

I think what you and Mr Neil mean is you want your views discussed at University and you don't like it if you think they aren't.

As a final point I am not sure that a load of tweedy old men telling University students they are doing it all wrong is a productive strategy, I am with Davey, let them sort it out on their own that is what being a student is about

They don't seem to be doing it much differently from when I was a student anyway, in those days it was all about Jewish Societies trying to shut down Palestinian Societies on the basis that Palestine didn't exist and if it did they were terrorists anyway.

Young people today seem to be less polarized and more liberal and accepting of difference if anything, and I think that is part of the problem with the crusty old farts however much they try and dress up their tired conservatism as exciting libertarianism.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 00:10

Nick wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I’m fine with that. But the video you posted wasn’t simply decrying thugs. The debate was about whether colleges should allow speakers of all positions, even when large numbers of students object.

I think it’s all high-minded and well-meaning to opine that colleges should allow all points of view, but to impose that on them is ultimately paternalistic.

Better to allow students to play out the whole issue on their own terms.


I think that's a slippery slope. To cite an extreme example, would the students of Humboldt university in 1938 have allowed a Jewish speaker to make their voice heard? Opposite the opera platz where a few years earlier, academics, librarians and students burned the books of authors whose opinions were deemed to be verdammt?

A minority opinion is not always, nor necessarily, a wrong opinion.

I think there are few things more appropriate in a university than to allow all voices to be heard. I don't think that's 'imposing' anything on students. I think it's encouraging them to mature, to deal with conflicting and challenging ideas, to develop their own thoughts and opinions, and to debate.


Slippery slope arguments are generally pretty unconvincing...and slippery slope arguments that rely on picturing oneself slipping into Nazisim even more so.

Ultimately what you aren’t seeing is that you are advocating to shut down debate. The debate in question is: “Do we owe _____ a platform in the name of free speech”?

You and a few others here would like to shut down that debate as if it were settled science. You’d like our kids to acquiesce to your opinion on the subject without allowing them to work through all permutations of the issue on their own. I’m not sure how you think that denying them agency in this struggle will ultimately make them more committed protectors of it. I suspect that the opposite is more likely.

There are very few debates more important than this one. If we fail to allow our youth the experience of getting their hands dirty in this arena, they’ll be sitting ducks for any sophisticated operator attempting to manipulate them into whatever brand of fascism is blowing into town at any given time.
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Postby Sneelock » 10 Mar 2018, 00:41

opinions are like assholes. everybody is married to one.;)
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