Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 00:24

yomptepi wrote:Of course , the man from momentum wants to claim this is all fantasy. I only know what I saw on the film on Newsnight, where they said it was becoming much more of a problem, and more and more debates were being affected by left wing activists determined to shut down any debate which disapproved of. There have been follow up reports, but I am sure you know that. It is all part of the new activist led Labour movement. How could you possibly think they were doing anything wrong. after all, they are your people.

And I did not say it was large scale. It is a few people at a few debates. How many does it have to be for it to be wrong?


So you admit what you have been posting is largely just fantasy, good, we are getting somewhere.

There are handful of cases of peaceful picketing of debates that did go ahead and a bit of shouting and a few people who either weren't invited or had invitations withdrawn, all of which has been going on for years in the rough and tumble of Student Union politics.

But now a pointy headed right wing ideologue at the Daily Mail has told you to get upset about it and like the good little drone you are you have dutifully got angry about it.

And your answer is to proscribe the freedom of speech of students so they have to debate what you and Mr Pointy Head want them to debate not what they wish to debate.

Well done you. Do you even think about what you are asking for here?

Your massive ignorance of Student Union politics over the last 50 years obviously shouldn't stop you having a view on this it just makes your view largely irrelevant and based on second hand spin from right wing extremists to whom you are simply a useful fool.

You would have hated the 70s and 80s it wasn't nice little Labour Students who were running Student Unions it was real fucking trots and revolutionary Marxists.

Students today are far more inclusive and liberal than they were in my day; you would have been tarred and feathered on most campuses up and down the country then rather than politely shown the door.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 00:29

Copehead wrote:I have no problem with demonstrating against Fascism when it organizes and I have no problem about organizing against it with violence when it brings violence, as it usually will.


We are coming at this question from different angles. I’m talking about this from the POV of what’s appropriate for college campuses. I can’t condone violence there.

I’m not a big fan of violence anywhere, but I get why fascism can’t always be met with non-violence. But that can’t be allowed to become a feature of college life. As the parent of a college student, my daughter’s safety is more important than any other concern.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 11 Mar 2018, 00:30

[
You don't like me...do you?

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 11 Mar 2018, 00:32

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:Of course , the man from momentum wants to claim this is all fantasy. I only know what I saw on the film on Newsnight, where they said it was becoming much more of a problem, and more and more debates were being affected by left wing activists determined to shut down any debate which disapproved of. There have been follow up reports, but I am sure you know that. It is all part of the new activist led Labour movement. How could you possibly think they were doing anything wrong. after all, they are your people.

And I did not say it was large scale. It is a few people at a few debates. How many does it have to be for it to be wrong?


So you admit what you have been posting is largely just fantasy, good, we are getting somewhere.


Are you on drugs?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Free Speech Advocates Pull Publicity Stunt at King's College London.

Postby Jimbo » 11 Mar 2018, 00:36

Sneelock wrote: He is known for the unapologetic and intolerant views he posts on You Tube. You Tube is currently in the process of shutting down these types of websites.


Do you think that it's okay for YouTube to shut down these websites? You write it so blithely, like it's a matter of course, do you think they are doing good by seeking out "these types of websites?" For it isn't just effecting right wing sites. There is a huge argument online about how recently, especially in the wake of Russiagate, anti-establishment sites, views not expressed in the Guardian and NYT, are, if not banned, de-funded or digitally marginalized. It's not as if YouTube are throwing chairs but the concrete way in which they can stifle debate is chilling is it not?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby sneelock » 11 Mar 2018, 00:38

It’s just a statement of fact. They ARE shutting those accounts down. Ii am suggesting something in the way of timing this stunt. I’ll leave the hair pulling to you.
Last edited by sneelock on 11 Mar 2018, 00:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby sneelock » 11 Mar 2018, 00:41

I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of other sockets to stick your fingers in.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Jimbo » 11 Mar 2018, 00:45

Sneelock wrote:It’s just a statement of fact. They ARE shutting those accounts down. I’ll leave the hair pulling to you.


I agree it's a fact but since we are talking about shutting down speakers on campus how do you and others feel about shutting down these same speakers online? Alex Jones recently got shut down. That's good, isn't it?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Do the Hully Gully while ‘Alt -Right’ activists Do the Swim'

Postby sneelock » 11 Mar 2018, 00:52

It’s not for me to say. I don’t own You Tube. There’s a robust discussion about things that have gone unchecked being checked now. They spend a lot of time making sure people don’t show their private parts. Now, they’e Monitoring some of the other content. It’s THEIR website so it’s up to them.

A lot of recent, violent, high profile whack jobs have been watching & posting a lot of you tubes. I know not having “false flag” videos will be, for you, like me not eating Ben & Jerry’s ice cream. But, I’m sure both will be just as easy to find in no time at all - especially with all these champions of “free speech” knocking around.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 00:53

yomptepi wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
You are right people like Yiannopoulos do not hold important views that need to be debated by students

You could argue that students shouldn't protest him, they should let him come along give a speech to 30 broflakes and leave.

But why should they do that, why shouldn't they make their disgust at his views known, why should they suppress their own freedom of speech?
.



Because then maybe they might actually have a chance to listen to what he has to say, rather than depending on what Corbyn has said on a you tube video to members of the party. Or from some wretched meme the Canary has posted. Or some concocted story from 38 degrees. They could listen , and digest , and consider, and then reply. Yes reply. Something you cannot do to a leader who only communicates via you tube videos. But they don't want answers, they want action. They want violence. They want to dictate what is and what is not acceptable.

Which is not acceptable.


Why the living fuck would they want to listen to what Milo Yiannopoulos has to say?

It isn't as if he hasn't been a Breitbart columnist for years, they know what he says because he has been saying loudly on national media for years.

Unless he has come to apologise for his racism, misogyny and support for pa@dophilia he hasn't got anything to say to them.

Do you even know who this guy is?

Or are you making a case for the rights and wrongs of pa@dophilia as something that students need to sit down and debate as well.

You are climbing into bed with some awfully strange bedfellows here Yomp.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 01:14

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Copehead wrote:I have no problem with demonstrating against Fascism when it organizes and I have no problem about organizing against it with violence when it brings violence, as it usually will.


We are coming at this question from different angles. I’m talking about this from the POV of what’s appropriate for college campuses. I can’t condone violence there.

I’m not a big fan of violence anywhere, but I get why fascism can’t always be met with non-violence. But that can’t be allowed to become a feature of college life. As the parent of a college student, my daughter’s safety is more important than any other concern.


I agree, it is very unlikely that the sort of street fascism that needs to be met with violence would ever try to organize on University campus, a grouping of the most intelligent members of society is unlikely to be a fertile recruiting ground for them.

If they or their alt-right fellow travelers are invited onto campuses by a small minority of students the majority should simply uninvited them if they wish to and point out the minority are perfectly able to hire another public space that does wish to host them.

If they are allowed to speak on campus they should be demonstrated against peacefully and debated forcefully.

In general I see no point in inviting outrage merchants like Yiannopoulos to a place of learning, he has nothing to say to people of learning and he has a very prominent soap box already.

I can't see any point in debating the far right as they are not interested in debate.

I can see the point of inviting democratic politicians of the left and right, even up to members of the far right who are democratically elected, although I struggle to see what Marine Le Pen could usefully tell the Oxford Union about immigration in the UK or our relationship with the world, outside France.

Should Farage be given a platform? Absolutely why not, expose him for the charlatan he is but don't let him debate on his own terms put him into a structured debate with someone who can tear him to pieces with reason and facts.

But only if the students want that to happen; if the majority decide they do not want to hear any more of Farage's cant then that is their democratic right, as pointed out if some students do want to hear invite him they can invite him to a hired room off campus as is their right.

In the case of someone like Farage I would say if he wants to control how the debate happens don't invite him, if he wants to be part of a structured debate on an equal footing then invite him because he hasn't really got any factual information to make his case it is all about emotion and fear and students should see through that.

I doubt he would attend a debate he couldn't control with an intelligent and probably largely hostile audience anyway. People are rather better versed in his lies than they were in 2016.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 01:17

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:Of course , the man from momentum wants to claim this is all fantasy. I only know what I saw on the film on Newsnight, where they said it was becoming much more of a problem, and more and more debates were being affected by left wing activists determined to shut down any debate which disapproved of. There have been follow up reports, but I am sure you know that. It is all part of the new activist led Labour movement. How could you possibly think they were doing anything wrong. after all, they are your people.

And I did not say it was large scale. It is a few people at a few debates. How many does it have to be for it to be wrong?


So you admit what you have been posting is largely just fantasy, good, we are getting somewhere.


Are you on drugs?


Sadly not, but I doubt they would get me to start supporting promoters of Pa@dophilia if I was.

Which leads us to ask - what are you on?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Jimbo » 11 Mar 2018, 01:42

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
So you admit what you have been posting is largely just fantasy, good, we are getting somewhere.


Are you on drugs?


Sadly not ....


So you favor opiate addiction.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 02:48

Jimbo wrote:So you favor opiate addiction.


Not addiction, but I have had a nice afternoon in bed after a couple of codeine pills once or twice.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 07:25

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The Antifa aren’t going to show up to violently shut down a feminist speaker with unpopular views. They show up against the alt-right because of the violence that undergirds the alt-right’s agenda.


Antifa don't turn up at feminist events, but trans activists do, and there have been examples of them turning violent. Bear in mind that some of these people are men who gleefully enthuse on social media about punching women ('punch a TERF' has become a trans slogan), and claim that this puts them 'on the right side of history'.


Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Let’s be clear about the conversations we are having. I am pushing back at the general accusation that college protests against speakers with controversial views are something we should all be getting the vapors over.


Nobody on here seems to have a problem with protest in itself. Copehead saying "If they are allowed to speak on campus they should be demonstrated against peacefully and debated forcefully" is exactly the same as what I've been saying.

What I'm against is physical intimidation and violence in protests where it is not warranted.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 08:05

Nick wrote:What I'm against is physical intimidation and violence in protests where it is not warranted.


So is everyone apart from a few hot headed anarchists who like to put on balaclavas and make alt right radio-controv mavens wet themselves.

That is not big or clever, but probably pretty funny.

The piece which started all this is a lot of fuss about a bit of pushing and shoving between a load of big children on both sides.

The talk was just to a bunch of spotty virgins in the Libertarian Club not a public performance, so they should have just let them get on with it they were harming no one and nothing apart from themselves and their chances with the opposite sex; or perhaps the University should have asked them to move it to a private venue.

But what an English man gets up to in private should stay private, even if it is wanking off to the childish ramblings of an Ayn Rand fan.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 16:27

Nick wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Let’s be clear about the conversations we are having. I am pushing back at the general accusation that college protests against speakers with controversial views are something we should all be getting the vapors over.


Nobody on here seems to have a problem with protest in itself. Copehead saying "If they are allowed to speak on campus they should be demonstrated against peacefully and debated forcefully" is exactly the same as what I've been saying.

What I'm against is physical intimidation and violence in protests where it is not warranted.


The question is IF they should be allowed to speak on campus. Unless I misunderstand you, you’ve been arguing that there is some free speech imperative towards not stopping speakers from speaking. I’m arguing that raising one’s voice to deny a platform to views that are unworthy of it IS ALSO free speech.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 17:54

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The question is IF they should be allowed to speak on campus. Unless I misunderstand you, you’ve been arguing that there is some free speech imperative towards not stopping speakers from speaking. I’m arguing that raising one’s voice to deny a platform to views that are unworthy of it IS ALSO free speech.


Well my main argument has been that people should, as a default position, be allowed to speak in public, without direct violent interference. So yes, I would agree that there should be a free speech imperative towards not stopping speakers from speaking, as a basic principle and point of honour. Unless (as a a caveat) there is a persuasive immediate reason why they shouldn't.

Your point in your final sentence there harks back to Voltaire's famous maxim, and whether you agree with it or not. Voltaire would evidently have disagreed with your point. That raises the question of whether Voltaire was in this case a foolish idealist. Copehead would probably agree that he was. I'm not sure what side of that fence you'd come down on if pushed - I'd be interested to know, if you care to elaborate on it.

The obvious question that follows from your final sentence there, is who decides what views are unworthy of being heard. What's your view on that?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Mar 2018, 18:45

Nick wrote:The obvious question that follows from your final sentence there, is who decides what views are unworthy of being heard. What's your view on that?


So you'd be in favour of having complete freedom of speech - whereby any political platform (no matter how extreme ) are legally entitled to say what they want, where they want? No proscribed parties or associations?

That's where Voltaire's thoughts eventually lead you?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 18:46

I just want to highlight your use of the word “violent” in this paragraph:

Well my main argument has been that people should, as a default position, be allowed to speak in public, without direct violent interference. So yes, I would agree that there should be a free speech imperative towards not stopping speakers from speaking, as a basic principle and point of honour. Unless (as a a caveat) there is a persuasive immediate reason why they shouldn't.


Do you see how you loaded the deck there?

I would let you go on it, but this is emblematic of the dishonesty that constantly permeates every discussion on this subject. On one hand you invoke Voltaire (who was talking about the right to free speech from the POV of government censorship) and argue for a default position that favors speech. On the other hand, you imagine only “violent interference” on the competing side of the ledger.

So where do you stand on the bulk of these incidents, which are simply a matter of students peacefully coming together to pressure their student union to cancel engagements they object to. Can you address this without conflating them with the Antifa or other violent outbreaks that have occurred in a small percentage of these cases?
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