Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 00:10

Nick wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I’m fine with that. But the video you posted wasn’t simply decrying thugs. The debate was about whether colleges should allow speakers of all positions, even when large numbers of students object.

I think it’s all high-minded and well-meaning to opine that colleges should allow all points of view, but to impose that on them is ultimately paternalistic.

Better to allow students to play out the whole issue on their own terms.


I think that's a slippery slope. To cite an extreme example, would the students of Humboldt university in 1938 have allowed a Jewish speaker to make their voice heard? Opposite the opera platz where a few years earlier, academics, librarians and students burned the books of authors whose opinions were deemed to be verdammt?

A minority opinion is not always, nor necessarily, a wrong opinion.

I think there are few things more appropriate in a university than to allow all voices to be heard. I don't think that's 'imposing' anything on students. I think it's encouraging them to mature, to deal with conflicting and challenging ideas, to develop their own thoughts and opinions, and to debate.


Slippery slope arguments are generally pretty unconvincing...and slippery slope arguments that rely on picturing oneself slipping into Nazisim even more so.

Ultimately what you aren’t seeing is that you are advocating to shut down debate. The debate in question is: “Do we owe _____ a platform in the name of free speech”?

You and a few others here would like to shut down that debate as if it were settled science. You’d like our kids to acquiesce to your opinion on the subject without allowing them to work through all permutations of the issue on their own. I’m not sure how you think that denying them agency in this struggle will ultimately make them more committed protectors of it. I suspect that the opposite is more likely.

There are very few debates more important than this one. If we fail to allow our youth the experience of getting their hands dirty in this arena, they’ll be sitting ducks for any sophisticated operator attempting to manipulate them into whatever brand of fascism is blowing into town at any given time.
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Self-Proclaimed Free Speech Advocates Pull Publicity Stunt at King's College London.

Postby Sneelock » 10 Mar 2018, 00:41

opinions are like assholes. everybody is married to one.;)
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 10 Mar 2018, 10:41

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Ultimately what you aren’t seeing is that you are advocating to shut down debate. The debate in question is: “Do we owe _____ a platform in the name of free speech”?

You and a few others here would like to shut down that debate as if it were settled science. You’d like our kids to acquiesce to your opinion on the subject without allowing them to work through all permutations of the issue on their own. I’m not sure how you think that denying them agency in this struggle will ultimately make them more committed protectors of it. I suspect that the opposite is more likely.

There are very few debates more important than this one. If we fail to allow our youth the experience of getting their hands dirty in this arena, they’ll be sitting ducks for any sophisticated operator attempting to manipulate them into whatever brand of fascism is blowing into town at any given time.


How do your arguments span out if twenty well organised thugs are disrupting 300 well behaved and academically interested students?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby THE SMOOTH SOUL STYLINGS OF SUMPTUOUS SI » 10 Mar 2018, 10:51

All part of the academic tradition!

least it was where I went to uni
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2018, 11:16

Joe Rogan's podcast has a wide spectrum of guests on his show from the left and the right. I'm no longer a impressionable college student. I heard an on-campus lecture back in the day about how there were a number of flaws in the Warren Report and came away thinking that maybe Oswald wasn't the shooter. Dumb, right? Anyway, I heard that guy Milo speak on Rogan's show. He'd been in the news, made some waves, upset some people and I was curious. Joe is a polite host and lets the speakers say their piece and it turned out that Milo's spiel was garbage, mostly nonsensical. My point being, let the speakers speak and let the listeners decide.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby wannabee enfant terrible » 10 Mar 2018, 11:39

yomptepi wrote:How do your arguments span out if three well organised thugs are disrupting twelve well behaved and academically interested students?


BCB in a nutshell.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Mar 2018, 12:31

nev gash wrote:
yomptepi wrote:How do your arguments span out if three well organised thugs are disrupting twelve well behaved and academically interested students?


BCB in a nutshell.


You and which other two?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby wannabee enfant terrible » 10 Mar 2018, 12:34

My aliases obviously.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 14:51

yomptepi wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Ultimately what you aren’t seeing is that you are advocating to shut down debate. The debate in question is: “Do we owe _____ a platform in the name of free speech”?

You and a few others here would like to shut down that debate as if it were settled science. You’d like our kids to acquiesce to your opinion on the subject without allowing them to work through all permutations of the issue on their own. I’m not sure how you think that denying them agency in this struggle will ultimately make them more committed protectors of it. I suspect that the opposite is more likely.

There are very few debates more important than this one. If we fail to allow our youth the experience of getting their hands dirty in this arena, they’ll be sitting ducks for any sophisticated operator attempting to manipulate them into whatever brand of fascism is blowing into town at any given time.


How do your arguments span out if twenty well organised thugs are disrupting 300 well behaved and academically interested students?


Depends on what you mean by “thugs”? Are we talking about peaceful protest or violent protest?

Lord knows that well organized minorities disrupt American life all the time. Take the NRA for one glaring example. So that’s a dynamic of our culture that young people ought to understand.

Theoretically that 300 person majority would make their feelings about those twenty kids known and everyone would learn from the incident.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 10 Mar 2018, 15:24

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Theoretically that 300 person majority would make their feelings about those twenty kids known and everyone would learn from the incident.


That isn't what happens. Furniture is thrown, abuse is hurled and the debates are cancelled. There is a word I am looking for for but just cannot reach...
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Mar 2018, 15:30

Is it "Bullingdon Club"?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 15:34

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Slippery slope arguments are generally pretty unconvincing...and slippery slope arguments that rely on picturing oneself slipping into Nazisim even more so.


I think you misunderstand me. I didn't picture anyone slipping into Nazism, I used that example as an illustration only of how it doesn't necessarily follow that a minority or unpopular opinion is a wrong opinion, or one that does not deserve to be aired and debated.


Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Ultimately what you aren’t seeing is that you are advocating to shut down debate. The debate in question is: “Do we owe _____ a platform in the name of free speech”?

You and a few others here would like to shut down that debate as if it were settled science. You’d like our kids to acquiesce to your opinion on the subject without allowing them to work through all permutations of the issue on their own. I’m not sure how you think that denying them agency in this struggle will ultimately make them more committed protectors of it. I suspect that the opposite is more likely.


Why do you think that?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 16:16

Copehead wrote:The idea that a handful of people on campus should be able to make a democratic body like a Student Union accept someone on to their property who the majority find abhorrent is very anti-democratic even for you Nick, approaching fascistic I'd say.


How would you know that the majority found someone abhorrent?

I doubt a majority of students at any university (apart from SOAS) would say that they found Germaine Greer or Julie Bindel abhorrent, were you to ask them.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 18:44

yomptepi wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Theoretically that 300 person majority would make their feelings about those twenty kids known and everyone would learn from the incident.


That isn't what happens. Furniture is thrown, abuse is hurled and the debates are cancelled. There is a word I am looking for for but just cannot reach...


Let’s stop pretending that all protest is violent protest.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 18:51

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Let’s stop pretending that all protest is violent protest.


It isn't, and I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

But Yomp is right to point out that the recent high profile cases reported* of university protests against speakers have involved at the very least physical intimidation of the speakers and the attendees by people invading those events. And it is happening more frequently.

*Indeed, the occurrence of this sort of thing is usually why these fracas have been reported. Let's not pretend that any news organisation would be very keen on simply reporting a protest of people politely waving placards and chanting outside a university building, unless it was an extremely slow news day.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby THE SMOOTH SOUL STYLINGS OF SUMPTUOUS SI » 10 Mar 2018, 18:52

His point, however, that if you allow all minorities to speak without discrimination then you risk violent clashes is a fair one, you would agree?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 18:56

THE NIGHT BEAK wrote:His point, however, that if you allow all minorities to speak without discrimination then you risk violent clashes is a fair one, you would agree?


Is the question addressed to me or Davey, John?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby THE SMOOTH SOUL STYLINGS OF SUMPTUOUS SI » 10 Mar 2018, 18:59

Davey
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 19:34

Nick wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Slippery slope arguments are generally pretty unconvincing...and slippery slope arguments that rely on picturing oneself slipping into Nazisim even more so.


I think you misunderstand me. I didn't picture anyone slipping into Nazism, I used that example as an illustration only of how it doesn't necessarily follow that a minority or unpopular opinion is a wrong opinion, or one that does not deserve to be aired and debated.


That’s not even in question. But so what? In the marketplace of ideas, all sorts of ideas go unheard all the time. A lot of the speakers whose ideas generate controversy are given attention specifically because their ideas are controversial. They aren’t always the best ideas - sometimes they are simply the most divisive. Take all the fracas around Milo Yiannopoulos. Does anyone believe that he was possessed of an important perspective that college students truly needed to debate? I submit to you that everyone learned more from the debate around whether he should be heard than anyone ever learned from one of his speeches.

We live in a time in which it isn’t hard to be heard if one has something controversial to say. It’s no great victory for free speech to assure that the most novel opinions are always allowed to dominate the larger conversation. Ultimately these protests end up bringing more debate and awareness of the supposedly censored speaker anyhow. So what is the big fucking deal?


Nick wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Ultimately what you aren’t seeing is that you are advocating to shut down debate. The debate in question is: “Do we owe _____ a platform in the name of free speech”?

You and a few others here would like to shut down that debate as if it were settled science. You’d like our kids to acquiesce to your opinion on the subject without allowing them to work through all permutations of the issue on their own. I’m not sure how you think that denying them agency in this struggle will ultimately make them more committed protectors of it. I suspect that the opposite is more likely.


Why do you think that?


Because we’d be denying our kids any meaningful engagement on the whole issue. How do they develop a sophisticated understanding of the issue without participating in these battles?

Wouldn’t you rather that a kid fall for all of the arguments you disagree with in a big battle over a college speaker and have to defend their actions when someone in the school paper accuses them of censorship, than to have them fall for those arguments as an adult when the stakes are a lot higher?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 19:42

THE NIGHT BEAK wrote:His point, however, that if you allow all minorities to speak without discrimination then you risk violent clashes is a fair one, you would agree?


I think yomp’s point is that violence is used a means to shut down debate. But your point is also correct ...let the person speak and violence is still possible.

That’s why it’s silly for this debate to be about violence. Controversial opinions will likely always incite violence. Violence isn’t okay, and I think we can all agree that it shouldn’t be tolerated. But the notion that protest and violence ought to be regarded as the same thing is silly.
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