Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 18:51

Diamond Dog wrote:
Nick wrote:The obvious question that follows from your final sentence there, is who decides what views are unworthy of being heard. What's your view on that?


So you'd be in favour of having complete freedom of speech - whereby any political platform (no matter how extreme ) are legally entitled to say what they want, where they want? No proscribed parties or associations?

That's where Voltaire's thoughts eventually lead you?


"Inciting racial hatred" Vs The US Model of allowing the WBC et al to spout (and possibly spread) hate.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby northernsky » 11 Mar 2018, 19:19

Nick wrote:Voltaire's famous maxim


His biographer’s famous maxim.

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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 20:26

northernsky wrote:
Nick wrote:Voltaire's famous maxim


His biographer’s famous maxim.


Yeah OK *holds hands up*
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 20:36

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:So where do you stand on the bulk of these incidents, which are simply a matter of students peacefully coming together to pressure their student union to cancel engagements they object to. Can you address this without conflating them with the Antifa or other violent outbreaks that have occurred in a small percentage of these cases?


I can. Unless they can present an argument that having the speaker on campus would cause physical danger to students (such as having violent far right thugs on campus who might attack them) then it's had to see how they'd have a case. If they don't want to hear what someone says, they can simply not attend the event. Or they can attend and challenge the person speaking. Or express their protest by turning up and demonstrating outside the venue. These are reasonable ways of expressing disagreement. I'm all in favour of them.

Why would people be so afraid of other students hearing someone speak? I mean, they can't regulate what other people do in their spare time. Other students might be spending hours listening to anything they want to off campus. Why the need to regulate what people listen to on campus? You can't control what other people read, listen to, or watch, or the opinions they might imbibe in their own time. All you can do is challenge opinions when and where they become apparent to you, if you think they need challenging.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 21:15

What do you mean by, “it’s hard to see where they have a case”?

What case? Are you suggesting that there is a law of some kind that ought to compel them not to?

Anyhow- it isn’t a matter of being afraid of allowing other students to hear someone speak. It is about not wanting to allow your educational establishment be used to confer legitimacy to speakers you feel are undeserving.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 21:28

Just for grins...

Your alma mater’s science department continues to host speakers on the subject of intelligent design. The department has enough money to host about 10 speakers a year, and two or three of them are now presenting on this subject. None of these speakers ever opt to allow questions from the audience (or if they do...are only given cursory time and no follow-up questions).

A group of science-minded students decide to try and pressure the school into discontinuing further ID-related speakers and decide to bring attention to their efforts by attempting to get an upcoming speech cancelled through active non-violent protest.

Are you with the students or not?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Belle Lettre » 11 Mar 2018, 22:06

Not the same thing as trying to disrupt a speaker, but wouldn't it be better if this lot weren't allowed near the place rather than the students have to protest them?

http://huffp.st/H1kn5AD
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 22:11

Nick wrote:[Well my main argument has been that people should, as a default position, be allowed to speak in public


Universities are not public spaces.

It boils down to on one side - students who are deciding who and who not should be allowed into their places of learning to speak and on the other - people who are under misapprehension that Universities are public forums where anyone should be able to stand up and talk about anything no matter how offense the majority of the students find it.

I think if we grasp the points that Universities are not public spaces and that students have a right to decide who comes onto their campus to speak we may be getting somewhere.

No one is denying anyone free speech in this, students are denying some people a platform to exercise their free speech as is their right

As I pointed out just like the BBC News deny me a platform to reply to their righty crap at the end of every Kuenssberg piece to camera

In fact the BBC have less right to do that because I pay my bloody license fee
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 22:19

Diamond Dog wrote:
Nick wrote:The obvious question that follows from your final sentence there, is who decides what views are unworthy of being heard. What's your view on that?


So you'd be in favour of having complete freedom of speech - whereby any political platform (no matter how extreme ) are legally entitled to say what they want, where they want? No proscribed parties or associations?

That's where Voltaire's thoughts eventually lead you?


Even if that were allowed it would change anything in this matter because Universities in general and the Students Unions in particular are not public spaces, Student Unions are basically private membership clubs.

Unless Nick is gearing up to campaign for me to be given a nightly right to reply to Laura Kuenssberg, it which case I will hold fire on this madness.

Not many sensible people believe in unfettered freedom of speech, incitement to violence has probably been a crime for as long as we have had crime, and surely the most swivel eyed of Libertarians would balk at forcing people to entertain the views of people they didn't want to listen to on their own private property.

If not I am round to Toby's when I get home to give him a long nightly lecture on the inevitable collapse of capitalism and the triumph of labour.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 12 Mar 2018, 00:20

Copehead wrote:
If not I am round to Toby's when I get home to give him a long nightly lecture on the inevitable collapse of capitalism and the triumph of labour.


Which is all good.

What he doesn't want you to do is go round to his house, smash up his furniture and terrify his children.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 12 Mar 2018, 00:48

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
If not I am round to Toby's when I get home to give him a long nightly lecture on the inevitable collapse of capitalism and the triumph of labour.


Which is all good.

What he doesn't want you to do is go round to his house, smash up his furniture and terrify his children.


Which, ironically, is why these people are being no platformed by students, I knew you'd get there in the end Mike :lol:
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2018, 15:01

Some inconvenient data:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... tness-data

It is so accepted that there is a growing climate of authoritarianism that whether or not individual examples are true is fundamentally irrelevant.

Except robust data suggests that maybe it isn’t. Overall public support for free speech is rising over time, not falling. People on the political right are less supportive of free speech than people on the left. College graduates are more supportive than non-graduates. Indeed, a 2016 Knight Foundation survey showed that college students are less likely than the overall population to support restrictions on speech on campus. Among the public at large, meanwhile, the group whose speech the public is most likely to favor stifling is Muslims.

The alarm about student protesters, in other words, though not always mistaken about particular cases, is generally grounded in a completely mistaken view of the big-picture state of American society and public opinion, both on and off campus.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 01 Apr 2018, 09:26

Here’s a database someone put up as a means of tracking college speaker “disinvitation attempts”. Not actual disinvitations,but attempts:

https://www.thefire.org/resources/disin ... -database/

Anyhow...they’ve listed 371 attempted disinvitations I The US since 2000, of which more than 100 were protests from the right (protesting people like Al Franken,Barack Obama and Stanley Tucci).

So...out of 5300 US colleges, each having multiple speakers every year...we are really supposed to get our underwear in a bunch over about 250 protests spread over 18 years???
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 01 Apr 2018, 12:10

I don't think the situations in the US and the UK are even remotely similar Davey. In the UK we have a campaign of disruption, orchestrated and organised by a political party and its supporters in open view. Children are being used for political ends, being refused the right to make their own decisions and openly debate with any cause that is not approved by the Corbyn administration. It is a deliberate and sordid attempt to keep children ignorant and ill informed, and to make sure they keep singing the party song.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 01 Apr 2018, 13:19

yomptepi wrote:I don't think the situations in the US and the UK are even remotely similar Davey. In the UK we have a campaign of disruption, orchestrated and organised by a political party and its supporters in open view. Children are being used for political ends, being refused the right to make their own decisions and openly debate with any cause that is not approved by the Corbyn administration. It is a deliberate and sordid attempt to keep children ignorant and ill informed, and to make sure they keep singing the party song.


Children go to university now?

When did this happen?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 01 Apr 2018, 14:13

Well, apparently we have to treat young people as children until they are 24 these days. Anyway, they behave like children, and they are treated like children, so if they walk like a duck...
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Diamond Dog » 01 Apr 2018, 14:59

yomptepi wrote:Well, apparently we have to treat young people as children until they are 24 these days. Anyway, they behave like children, and they are treated like children, so if they walk like a duck...


Yes kinder.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 01 Apr 2018, 18:42

yomptepi wrote:Well, apparently we have to treat young people as children until they are 24 these days. Anyway, they behave like children, and they are treated like children, so if they walk like a duck...


What they need is a war, toughen them up, they wouldn't be complaining about Jim Davidson calling Black people Darkies then would they.
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 00:38

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:Well, apparently we have to treat young people as children until they are 24 these days. Anyway, they behave like children, and they are treated like children, so if they walk like a duck...


What they need is a war, toughen them up, they wouldn't be complaining about Jim Davidson calling Black people Darkies then would they.


Not really the problem as it is not 1952.

However it would be gratifying if their sole reason for wanting Corbyn wasn't that his names fits the tune to a pop song. Wouldn't it?
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Re: Self-Proclaimed Antifascists Shut Down 'Alt-Right' Speech At Kings College London

Postby Copehead » 02 Apr 2018, 07:50

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:Well, apparently we have to treat young people as children until they are 24 these days. Anyway, they behave like children, and they are treated like children, so if they walk like a duck...


What they need is a war, toughen them up, they wouldn't be complaining about Jim Davidson calling Black people Darkies then would they.


Not really the problem as it is not 1952.

However it would be gratifying if their sole reason for wanting Corbyn wasn't that his names fits the tune to a pop song. Wouldn't it?


Of all the things to attack them for putting his name to White Stripes guitar riff has got to be the most important.
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