Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

I prefer....

Jacob
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Jezzer
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Total votes: 40

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Nikki Gradual » 19 Feb 2018, 12:31

Fonz wrote:Did you hate Blair etc at the time, or is it a retrospective type of disgust?


Disliked and distrusted him from the first time I saw him speak, which was long before he was party leader. Like everyone else, I celebrated on election night when the Tories were ousted and so many grandees were given the bloody nose they so richly deserved.
When he was in power at first I had a great sense of unease, but when Robin Cook went that became opposition and then as the Blair-Mandleson-Campbell cabal continued (and it was just them, everyone else was just extras) then hate. Since they went and yet refuse to acknowledge that they are not running the Labour Party, when they slither out of the shadows with that messiah complex as strong as ever, it has become pure bilious vitriol.
Yup, I think that’s a pretty honest assessment.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Jimbo » 19 Feb 2018, 12:42

Nikki Gradual wrote: but when Robin Cook went ...


And then suffered a heart attack walking down a mountain it was so sad.

Color me suspicious. :?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Toby » 19 Feb 2018, 12:45

Oh shut up you tit.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby SWIMMING POOL HARRINGTON » 19 Feb 2018, 12:47

:lol:
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 19 Feb 2018, 12:56

Goat Boy wrote:
Chavez may have done “good” in the beginning but we are seeing the short sighted consequences of his regimes actions. It’s all very well wanting revolutionary policies to help reduce poverty and increase equality but they come at a cost of course. They always do and the far left needs to recognise this and own its failures.




A wider, if undetailed, view.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 19 Feb 2018, 12:57

Toby wrote:...I just don't think there needs to be any need for lacing political perspectives with personal attacks on the efficacy of the other person.


:roll:
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Toby » 19 Feb 2018, 13:13

Given the context of the post and the poster's generally delusional state about conspiracies, I think this answer was necessary.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 19 Feb 2018, 13:17

:lol:
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Geezee » 19 Feb 2018, 13:55

Nikki Gradual wrote:
Fonz wrote:Did you hate Blair etc at the time, or is it a retrospective type of disgust?


Disliked and distrusted him from the first time I saw him speak, which was long before he was party leader. Like everyone else, I celebrated on election night when the Tories were ousted and so many grandees were given the bloody nose they so richly deserved.
When he was in power at first I had a great sense of unease, but when Robin Cook went that became opposition and then as the Blair-Mandleson-Campbell cabal continued (and it was just them, everyone else was just extras) then hate. Since they went and yet refuse to acknowledge that they are not running the Labour Party, when they slither out of the shadows with that messiah complex as strong as ever, it has become pure bilious vitriol.
Yup, I think that’s a pretty honest assessment.


I remember sitting in shock for about a week when, shortly after the election, they announced the tuition fees reform. It was a few weeks into becoming a student myself, and was a very unfortunate lesson in growing up. I certainly had been taken in by Blair until then.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Nikki Gradual » 19 Feb 2018, 14:47

Geezee wrote:
Nikki Gradual wrote:
Fonz wrote:Did you hate Blair etc at the time, or is it a retrospective type of disgust?


Disliked and distrusted him from the first time I saw him speak, which was long before he was party leader. Like everyone else, I celebrated on election night when the Tories were ousted and so many grandees were given the bloody nose they so richly deserved.
When he was in power at first I had a great sense of unease, but when Robin Cook went that became opposition and then as the Blair-Mandleson-Campbell cabal continued (and it was just them, everyone else was just extras) then hate. Since they went and yet refuse to acknowledge that they are not running the Labour Party, when they slither out of the shadows with that messiah complex as strong as ever, it has become pure bilious vitriol.
Yup, I think that’s a pretty honest assessment.


I remember sitting in shock for about a week when, shortly after the election, they announced the tuition fees reform. It was a few weeks into becoming a student myself, and was a very unfortunate lesson in growing up. I certainly had been taken in by Blair until then.


The first time I saw him I was a local newspaper reporter covering a speech he was delivering to a police training college. He got a standing ovation. Regardless of what he had said, such a reception for a Labour politician from that audience was enough to set alarm bells ringing. My colleague and I turned to each other and said more or less in unison: "He's going be Prime Minister."
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Geezee » 19 Feb 2018, 15:22

My main takeaway from that experience was ultimately not so much that Blair/Brown were wrong in what they did (the tuition fees was only the first in a long laundry list of items that disillusioned me), but rather that I should never place so much faith or hope in one person, or party, or whatever. Hence while I'm deeply disappointed by someone like Corbyn, I never had a huge amount of expectation of him to begin with.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Geezee » 19 Feb 2018, 16:29

Goat Boy wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
I somehow doubt Mogg would be as destructive as Chavez, lets face it. Venezuela is fucked. Another failed experiment


Was it really?
Chavez took over from a government that was widely seen to be corrupt in a country riven by violence and appalling poverty. A more balanced view would admit that he did do things to improve the country and reduce levels of poverty and illiteracy.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/oct/04/venezuela-hugo-chavez-election-data
There were also failures and I certainly would condemn him on human rights. But your dismissal is too simplistic.


I think it was reckless, ideological short termism, G. The road to hell 'n' all that. Considering the level of the humanitarian crises and the future that country faces then, yeah, I see it as a failed experiment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -shortages

This is from 2014:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/04/pov ... venezuela/

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/c ... /venezuela

Chavez may have done “good” in the beginning but we are seeing the short sighted consequences of his regimes actions. It’s all very well wanting revolutionary policies to help reduce poverty and increase equality but they come at a cost of course. They always do and the far left needs to recognise this and own its failures.


Either way, I don't see anything that Corbyn has done in supporting Chavez's programme that is any worse than what right-wingers do in supporting their disgusting puppet regimes - in particular, I don't understand why right-wingers who criticise Corbyn's apparent "support" of Iran somehow doesn't also translate into abhorrence over right-wingers' support of Iran's nemesis Saudi Arabia.

In particular, why should Corbyn not get "anywhere near the reins of power", but anyone who supports Saudi Arabia should?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Joe Baxter » 19 Feb 2018, 16:30

They are a pair of cunts.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 19 Feb 2018, 20:02

Nikki Gradual wrote:I loved the fact that Corbyn is a grassroots socialist and a conviction politician, but the fact that he is becoming more and more like Michael Foot and is also more of a career politician than just about anyone else in parliament seems to be at odds with that.


I don't quite get what you mean with this comment, James. Could you expand?



(Incidentally, the way Toby referred to him as a "competent constituency MP" was one of the reasons for my scoffing post.)
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 19 Feb 2018, 21:53

Fonz wrote:
Did you hate Blair etc at the time, or is it a retrospective type of disgust?

Up to a point, I believed in ‘Blair’. It is only with the benefit of hindsight that they look egregious, but even with that knowledge, were probably better than the alternative.

I need politicians who are actually going to change things, not a commitment to an unworkable ideal principle.


I was always unsettled by that "Pump your hand with mad staring eyes and fixed grin," way he had and was really bemused by everyone seeming to agree he was a great orator. I mean, I could see he was a communicator but, even though he was saying stuff I wanted to hear (albeit a Clause 4-lite version), I couldn't quite see that. But he certainly offered hope and I wiped a tear or two from my eye that sunny May morning as I walked down the street and thought, "We've won our country back."

In retrospect, it wasn't just the War crimes that did for New Labour, though. It was the very fact that New Labour turned out to be little more than a bloodless coup by a slightly Left-leaning faction in a vast and complex party (who could almost have been on the left of the Tory party, though I doubt Alistair Campbell could even stomach the thought of that) and no less than a selling down the river of and entire grassroots network. Keep doing all that door-knocking, will you, but don't be expecting much of a say any more was the message. A top-down coup, the rope-ladders of power and influence pulled up.

But it lead to a landslide so we all wore it. How couldn't we after 18 years in the desert? Old Labour, bad; New Labour, good. Blairism might not be an ideal form of socialism but, hey, socialism is dead anyway. Gotta move with the times. Get in power. Then and only then....

In 1997, everything was set for a Labour landslide. The country - seemingly permaTory at one point - had had more than enough of the sleeze and didn't trust the Right on Europe, on social policy (Poll tax riot, anyone?) and maybe even the economy. Everybody (Noel, Liam, Jarvis, even Alan Sugar) felt the time was right for change. Labour's victory was so great and the Tories were in such disarray that it gave the impression that New Labour, and not the Tory Party, were the natural party of government. Blair, Campbell and Mandy reigned supreme. They were right. Ditch Clause 4. Modernise. Win. Transform.

But Blairism - New Labour - it turned out wasn't a permanently winning hand. It wasn't a royal flush. What it offered appealed enormously in 1997 and the landslide gave the impression that it was the new normal but it was a fatally flawed product and here's why.

New Labour went from 1997 landslide to slightly reduced but still massive majority in 2001 to much reduced majority in 2005 to being ousted from power in 2010. So much for New Labour's winning formula.

What went wrong, then? The Blessed Tony going? No, he had his self-satisfied nose bloodied in the 2005 election. In a post Iraq War/WMDs world, he was, and remains, toxic. The war itself, then? Was that the downfall of New Labour? Seems pretty obvious it was. Except that, in a very important way, that was more a symptom of New Labour's downfall than a cause.

"New Labour," if one had to define it in one (perhaps over-generous) phrase, could be "Caring neoliberalism," maybe. Someone else might suggest something like "compassionate capitalism." And certainly, its commitment to the minimum wage, its immediate ordering of an inquiry into the Stephen Lawrence murder (a matter which will forever stain Major's Tory legacy), it's seeming determination to be socially progressive and, indeed, "meritocratic" set it apart from being merely Tory-lite.

But there was also something very troubling about it. By cutting itself free of the Unions and the motions and resolutions of the activists in the PLPs around the country it had turned itself - transformed itself - into a sort of centre-leftist Tory party. Not accountable to its members. This was no doubt seen as a selling point at first because i got rid of all those loony do-gooders with their CND badges.

But it also meant that the direction of power in the party, which had traditionally flowed upwards from the bottom through activists representing and reporting on constituents, and from CLPs, all with their own democratically mini "parliaments" of reps, and from the NEC towards the top was suddenly reversed to a large extent. Blair had made himself presidential within his own party.

The significance of all this is that just as the last days of Major were characterised by almost constant sleaze (i.e. Many MPs acting as though they were above the law, could do what they want and were not even pretending to have any sort of moral compass), the new Blair government became almost immediately characterised by "cronyism." Jobs handed to Blairites from the top down, not appointed or elected on merit from the bottom up. Welcome to the new Boss.

And that was the fatal flaw in New Labour.

An utter lack of accountability mixed with a patronising view that they knew what's best for us. Don't like Labour presiding over privatisations or cosying up to Big Business? Live in the real world, Comrade.

But of course there was an almost invisible but hugely important phenomenon developing all the time, just below the surface of daily political life.

Everyone was getting pissed off with not being listened to. Ordinary people, no matter what their politics, were getting a sense of being completely removed from the political process and, worse, still, from political consideration. It was like they were shouting in a vacuum or something.

The Public (that stupid bloody Public that knew fuck all and was probably racist anyway) wasn't politically apathetic - or at least, not all of them were. They had been shouting, even as the politicians lamented their supposed indifference. No fucker was listening though.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And there we have the single most significant reason for the rise of Corbyn. He didn't come to save us, he no doubt had no idea what was about to happen. But it did happen. And the reason it happened is because lots of people who were written off as being depressingly uninterested in politics (God help us all with this bloody apathy, eh?) were actually just uninterested in being fobbed off and treated like some sort of window dressing to the political process.

Whatever you may or may not think of Corbyn's views, his competency or, indeed, his misanthropy, it is surely his decency, his commitment the democratic process and his integrity which has reignited the democratic process rather thrillingly in his Party. Just when it needed.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Goat Boy » 19 Feb 2018, 22:02

1997 was the only time I felt excitement about politics. It was the first time I'd voted. I was clueless really (I was clueless for most of my 20s too) but being Scottish I hated the Tories and was delighted to see them stuffed.

It was all downhill from there of course. Still, 97 was fun, huh?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Nikki Gradual » 19 Feb 2018, 22:03

German Dave wrote:
Nikki Gradual wrote:I loved the fact that Corbyn is a grassroots socialist and a conviction politician, but the fact that he is becoming more and more like Michael Foot and is also more of a career politician than just about anyone else in parliament seems to be at odds with that.


I don't quite get what you mean with this comment, James. Could you expand?



(Incidentally, the way Toby referred to him as a "competent constituency MP" was one of the reasons for my scoffing post.)


I guess my point is that Jezza only seems different now because he has come to prominence immediately after the New Labour era. Before that shit-shower he was the back-bench norm and probably still should be judged as so. Probably a bit more left-leaning than most, but still playing a role in the establishment, still a little bit too much in love with the processes and traditions of Westminster. I have had the good/mis fortune to meet a fair few MPs and it is astonishing how intoxicated they become by the Westminster bubble and the way it operates, the very concept of parliament becoming their opiate, separating them from the people and their causes. Not that they don't want to represent people, but that the status, process and freedom of Government to them somehow becomes more important than the basics of why they wanted to be there in the first place. They all seem to sometimes get so wrapped up in their sense of self-importance over the democracy thing that they lose track of their purpose. And Jezza fits that type entirely, often pontificating over the process rather than the results. You can see how much he loves the Westminster game, the fencing of PMQs etc. He's been in parliament for 35 years and no one had heard of him until 2015. Isn't that a bid odd?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Goat Boy » 19 Feb 2018, 22:04

German Dave wrote:socialism is dead anyway.


Progress!
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby The Modernist » 19 Feb 2018, 22:15

Great post by Griff.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 19 Feb 2018, 22:26

It was. But JC's no Rees-Mogg.
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