Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

I prefer....

Jacob
13
33%
Jezzer
27
68%
 
Total votes: 40

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 10 Mar 2018, 19:01

Joan Ryan, Chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Just saying. No, I don't know what was on that Facebook group. Was it banned?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 19:13

Belle Lettre wrote:Joan Ryan, Chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Just saying.


I'm not being funny, but so what?


Belle Lettre wrote:No, I don't know what was on that Facebook group. Was it banned?


It was/is a secret group, whose members included Jeremy Corbyn, Clive Lewis, Chris Williamson and Jackie Walker. A number of national newspapers are reporting the story, if you want to Google it.

A friend of a friend was a member (added by someone else) and left because of the content. For the record he's a staunch defender of Palestinian rights who I've on occasion argued with about Israel. Here's what he said in a public statement he released today:

‘I joined the ‘Palestine Live’ Facebook group in I think the spring of 2014. I had met Elleanne Green socially, and she struck me as a pleasant enough woman. We chatted for half an hour or so, not about politics. I gathered that she was an actor, and it is possible that my assumption was, if anything, that a member of so strikingly diverse and cosmopolitan profession was unlikely to be a racist.

I am a Christian and an Englishman with, so far as I know, no Jewish or Arab heritage on either side. I believe in the two-state solution. I believe in Israel’s right to exist, to defend itself, and to be as Jewish as lox on bagels within its internationally recognised borders. I believe also that the Palestinians are suffering grievous wrong and injustice in the occupied territories. I believe, along with the civilised world, that the occupation is unlawful under the provisions of the Geneva Conventions forbidding the settlement of civilians on land conquered in warfare. I also believe, with many Israelis and diaspora Jews, that the occupation is not in Israel’s long-term interest, and I see a large practical difference between the Zionist dream and the imperialist nightmare.

All this by way of introduction to my interest in the Palestinian cause. I joined the Palestine Live group, started by my friend, thinking that it would be reportage, links to reputable news sources. One would indeed see them, but the day came when they were becoming fewer and further between. The comments were taking a very hard and unpleasant tone. Zionists, it seems, want to create a master race. (A deliberate and hostile misunderstanding of the ‘chosen people’, I think, and as such antisemitic per se) The Holocaust is greatly exaggerated. Israel is the result of a colonialist movement (so much for Mizrachi Jews) and therefore has no right to exist. Jacob Rothschild and his relations control the world’s media and banks and manipulate them in the interests of Jews.

This is not news of the latest settler outrage on a Palestinian farm. This is Nazi-grade, unequivocal racism, and reader, I wanted no part of it.

Seeing no reason not to say openly why I was leaving, I did so on 26 August 2014 with the following words:

I hoped that this would strike a chord with others of like mind; four ‘likes’ suggest that it did. It’s a pity there weren’t more.

Anyone who joined around or after the summer of 2014 will assuredly have been perfectly aware of what he was getting into.

Being against racism is no particular virtue. It’s common decency. I write this not to vindicate myself, but for what lawyers call the avoidance of doubt about the Palestine Live page.’
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 10 Mar 2018, 19:18

It does sound like a loose cannon. I've left a couple of groups myself.

Just googled as you suggested. Yes, I see it's being reported by the Express, the Sun and the Jewish Chronicle. You'll forgive me for not clicking on the links.

From one of the sub-headlines showing I see that the leader of Breaking The Silence was on it?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 10 Mar 2018, 19:31

Fonz wrote:Do Palestinians have equal rights?

Not really

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180 ... ts-groups/
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 19:35

Belle Lettre wrote:It does sound like a loose cannon. I've left a couple of groups myself.


I have too. Membership of a social media group is not necessarily a smoking gun in itself.

But what matters now is what Corbyn's reaction is. He has a lot of work to do if he's going to convince people there's nothing to this, because there has been so much smoke and some real fire about this sort of thing in Labour over the past couple of years. The catastrophically mismanaged Chakrabarti 'enquiry' only made things worse. Joan Ryan is, I think, quite right to press him for proper, solid action on antisemitism within Labour.

A lot of people will only buy the 'we are against antisemitism andallotherformsofracism' schtick for so long. I know numerous people, previously solid Labour voters (far more so than me), who've long since washed their hands of Corbyn's Labour because of it.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Copehead » 10 Mar 2018, 22:22

Nick wrote:
Copehead wrote:... you have just somehow convinced yourself he is a dangerous left wing extremist in the face of piles of evidence that he is a mild mannered, vegetarian, allotment tending, sandal wearing, social democrat, pacifist.


Well, this is interesting. I'm looking forward to Copehead's 'explanation' of this one.

Image


Don't need my explanation, Corbyn's explanation is perfectly understandable.

It is akin to me buying you membership of the BNP and then saying look I told you Nick was a Nazi he is a member of the BNP.
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby yomptepi » 11 Mar 2018, 10:44

Copehead wrote:
Nick wrote:
Copehead wrote:... you have just somehow convinced yourself he is a dangerous left wing extremist in the face of piles of evidence that he is a mild mannered, vegetarian, allotment tending, sandal wearing, social democrat, pacifist.


Well, this is interesting. I'm looking forward to Copehead's 'explanation' of this one.

Image


Don't need my explanation, Corbyn's explanation is perfectly understandable.

It is akin to me buying you membership of the BNP and then saying look I told you Nick was a Nazi he is a member of the BNP.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

brilliant!
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 15:09

Goat Boy wrote:Maybe there's some good stuff on that website. I've seen you and Carol posting links from there before but it's obviously hopelessly biased and when it has people like this writing for it then you'll excuse me for not bothering as a matter of principle.

https://twitter.com/RanaGaza/status/477498490445398016

https://twitter.com/RanaGaza/status/477491610977333248

Here she is: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rana-baker


Apologies for temporarily abandoning this thread - Been mad busy with work then Frank's been staying for the weekend.

Dougie, thanks for posting that - I was unaware of it, obviously. Vile of Baker to post those tweets. Sadly, in a conflict/dispute like this, you're bound to get some hateful bile from some quarters on either side. What I will say is that she apparently used to write the occasional article for the Grauniad too but nothing since those tweets. Similarly, it looks like Electronic Intifada dropped her pretty soon after the two offensive tweets. I intend to write to EI for clarification of their position on this sort of thing.

In the meantime, as I've said, I will continue to read EI because it often reports facts which, sadly, are not picked up on by the mainstream news outlets.

Do you ever read Jonathan Cook's blog? He's an award-winning ex-Guardian journalist who now lives in and reports from Nazareth. Here is his latest post:

The lies and self-deceptions at work within Israel’s ‘moral’ army
4 March 2018
The National – 4 March 2018

It is has been a very bad week for those claiming Israel has the most moral army in the world. Here’s a small sample of abuses of Palestinians in recent days in which the Israeli army was caught lying.

A child horrifically injured by soldiers was arrested and terrified into signing a false confession that he was hurt in a bicycle accident. A man who, it was claimed, had died of tear-gas inhalation was actually shot at point-blank range, then savagely beaten by a mob of soldiers and left to die. And soldiers threw a tear gas canister at a Palestinian couple, baby in arms, as they fled for safety during a military invasion of their village.

In the early 2000s, at the dawn of the social media revolution, Israelis used to dismiss filmed evidence of brutality by their soldiers as fakery. It was what they called “Pallywood” – a conflation of Palestinian and Hollywood.

In truth, however, it was the Israeli military, not the Palestinians, that needed to manufacture a more convenient version of reality.

Last week, it emerged, Israeli officials had conceded to a military court that the army had beaten and locked up a group of Palestinian reporters as part of an explicit policy of stopping journalists from covering abuses by its soldiers.

Israel’s deceptions have a long history. Back in the 1970s, a young Juliano Meir-Khamis, later to become one of Israel’s most celebrated actors, was assigned the job of carrying a weapons bag on operations in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. When Palestinian women or children were killed, he placed a weapon next to the body.

In one incident, when soldiers playing around with a shoulder-launcher fired a missile at a donkey, and the 12-year-old girl riding it, Meir-Khamis was ordered to put explosives on their remains.


That occurred before the Palestinians’ first mass uprising against the occupation erupted in the late 1980s. Then, the defence minister Yitzhak Rabin – later given a Hollywood-style makeover himself as a peacemaker – urged troops to “break the bones” of Palestinians to stop their liberation struggle.

The desperate, and sometimes self-sabotaging, lengths Israel takes to try to salvage its image were underscored last week when 15-year-old Mohammed Tamimi was grabbed from his bed in a night raid.

Back in December he was shot in the face by soldiers during an invasion of his village of Nabi Saleh. Doctors saved his life, but he was left with a misshapen head and a section of skull missing.

Mohammed’s suffering made headlines because he was a bit-player in a larger drama. Shortly after he was shot, a video recorded his cousin, 16-year-old Ahed Tamimi, slapping a soldier nearby after he entered her home.

Ahed, who is in jail awaiting trial, was already a Palestinian resistance icon. Now she has become a symbol too of Israel’s victimisation of children.


So, Israel began work on recrafting the narrative: of Ahed as a terrorist and provocateur.

It emerged that a government minister, Michael Oren, had even set up a secret committee to try to prove that Ahed and her family were really paid actors, not Palestinians, there to “make Israel look bad”. The Pallywood delusion had gone into overdrive.

Last week events took a new turn as Mohammed and other relatives were seized, even though he is still gravely ill. Dragged off to an interrogation cell, he was denied access to a lawyer or parent.

Shortly afterwards, Israel produced a signed confession stating that Mohammed’s horrific injuries were not Israel’s responsibility but wounds inflicted in a bicycle crash.


Yoav Mordechai, the occupation’s top official, trumpeted proof of a Palestinian “culture of lies and incitement”. Mohammed’s injuries were “fake news”, the Israeli media dutifully reported.

Deprived of a justification for slapping an occupation soldier, Ahed can now be locked away by military judges. Except that witnesses, phone records and hospital documentation, including brain scans, all prove that Mohammed was shot.

This was simply another of Israellywood’s endless productions to automatically confer guilt on Palestinians. The hundreds of children on Israel’s incarceration production line each year have to sign confessions – or plea bargains – to win jail-sentence reductions from courts with near-100% conviction rates.

It is more Franz Kafka than Hollywood.

A second army narrative unravelled last week. CCTV showed Yasin Saradih, 35, being shot at point-blank range during an invasion of Jericho, then savagely beaten by soldiers as he lay wounded, and left to bleed to death.

It was an unexceptional incident. A report by Amnesty International last month noted that many of the dozens of Palestinians killed in 2017 appeared to be victims of extra-judicial executions.


Before footage of Saradih’s killing surfaced, the army issued a series of false statements, including that he died from tear-gas inhalation, received first-aid treatment and was armed with a knife. The video disproves all of that.

Over the past two years, dozens of Palestinians, including women and children, have been shot in similarly suspicious circumstances. Invariably the army concludes that they were killed while attacking soldiers with a knife – Israel even named this period of unrest a “knife intifada”.

Are soldiers today carrying a “knife bag”, just as Meir-Khamis once carried a weapons bag?

A half-century of occupation has not only corrupted generations of teenage Israeli soldiers who have been allowed to lord it over Palestinians. It has also needed an industry of lies and self-deceptions to make sure the consciences of Israelis are never clouded by a moment of doubt – that maybe their army is not so moral after all.


Anti-Israel propaganda? Or just the reportage of criminally-ignored extra-judicial actions by the Israeli state against its own citizens? Seems to be the latter to me. Some democracy if it is.

For the record, although I have mixed feelings to say the least about "Zionism" in all its forms and meanings, I have always had a great sympathy for the plight of, and disgust at the historical treatment of, Jews down the centuries. Whenever I am in a foreign city I will research and visit any historic Jewish quarter that might exist there. I have visited various Jewish museums all over Europe including Warsaw's magnificent new Jewish Museum on both of my last two visits to that city. I have, as well, been on over half a dozen Jewish-themed walking tours of East London over the last ten years. I say all of this because I suspect that I might be seen as an anti-semite by some on this thread. I most certainly am not. And although I look skeptically at the creation of the Israeli state as a Western imperialist means to an end, I think that that is an irrelevance these days. Israel is there so any desire or aim to somehow get rid of it is misguided at best, evil-minded at worst.

So, the only solution has to be a Two State one.

With that in mind, surely it is right to lambast in the strongest possible terms the Israeli de facto policy of stealing Palestinian land and placing Israeli "settlers" on it. Everyone surely can see that that is only going to sabotage any possibility of a two state solution.

I asked Nick earlier, how come, if he's for a two state solution, he doesn't criticise Israel's sabotaging of it. Not sure if he's answered that so I'll read the rest of the thread now.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 16:49

This article from the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz (I'm a subscriber) really resonates with me because well over 30 years ago I went to a Durham University Labour Club special event addressed by the then-president of the Student Union of Birzeit University (a Palestinian university in the illegally-occupied West Bank). It was a revelatory moment for me.

Until then, ill-informed by the largely disinterested UK media, I'd had little idea about what was actually going on in Palestine. My memory is that I basically thought they were probably both as bad as each other and I was was probably even more prejudiced against the Palestinians because Arafat looked like a strange hybrid of human and toad with tea-towel on its head).) But that night this incredibly admirable young Palestinian woman (even her gender challenged my misconceptions - Weren't Muslims supposed the be misogynistic and patriarchal?) opened my eyes.

She spoke about the victimisation, the routine harassment, the intimidation and humiliation and the lack of political rights in her homeland. About the lack of rights to even move freely. At the time she was actually under house arrest but had risked her life to be smuggled out of the country to get the message out about the true nature of the Middle East's only democracy.

At the end of the night she went - where I don't recall, but she had that perilous journey back into the West Bank, of course. I'm not sure whatever became of her. I hope she's still alive and fighting.

Her visit made such an impression on us that we decided we had to do something about it. I was just a bystander, really - an ingénu with good intentions - and had no part in the setting up of the Durham Birzeit Studentship Fund but I became my college's inaugural DBSF representative. Our aim was to raise funds to sponsor a single Palestinian student a year to study at Durham University.

The organisation still exists over 30 years later ("Started in 1984" it says on its website to my great pride) though it now extends its reach right across the illegally-occupied West Bank and the rubble that is the Gaza Strip. It is these days known as the Durham Palestinian Educational Trust. Take a look:

https://www.dur.ac.uk/durham.palestine/

Anyway, here's the article (an opinion piece in an Israeli national newspaper, remember):

(Fauda is an Israeli political thriller series, addressing the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, by the way.)

Opinion: How 'Fauda' Has Romanticized the Most Repugnant Aspects of Israel's Occupation

When Israeli security forces, disguised as Palestinian journalists, stormed Birzeit university and arrested a student leader, the Israeli media, rather than outrage, offered its highest plaudit: "Just like 'Fauda'"

Hagar Shezaf Mar 11, 2018 4:30 PM

Acting on orders, Israeli soldiers assaulted journalists to prevent media coverage
What it's like to be a Palestinian journalist, according to an East Jerusalem editor
'Fauda' creators think Arabs are stupid


Last Wednesday the undercover IDF border police commandos who disguise themselves as Palestinians, known as mistarvim, entered Birzeit University near Ramallah and arrested student council president Omar al-Kiswani. Al-Kiswani is active in the Hamas students' cell at the university, which controls the student council.

According to reports based on Palestinian eyewitness accounts, the Mistarvim who arrested Al-Kiswani that day entered the university grounds disguised as journalists.

The very fact that military forces entered a Palestinian university in the middle of a school day and arrested the head of the student council in itself merits criticism. Disguising themselves as journalists is naturally another reason for the great deal of attention the story received, both in the Israeli and Palestinian media, for good reason.

But as a journalist who works in the West Bank, it was clear to me that the reports of this arrest are likely to have significant consequences for me too.

As Israeli journalists covering the West Bank, we often encounter entrenched suspicion on the part of Palestinians. Some aren't interested in being interviewed because they have been burned by the Israeli media and how they were presented, and others boycott Israeli media outlets on principle, and see them as a part of the occupation and intelligence establishments.


As the years pass, the degree and depth of the severance between Israeli and Palestinian societies is growing, as is the mutual hostility of both sides. This distancing makes the work of Israeli journalists on the West Bank even more important, if more difficult.

Telling stories from behind the wall and exposing truths is our way to make sure people stay informed. To do it, we have to speak to people, to be in the field, to win a certain amount of trust.

There's another reason for Palestinians' wariness of Israeli journalists, and it's got nothing to do with abstract feelings of mistrust or hatred. It's very concrete: Israel's use of undercover commandos disguised as Palestinians to perform arrests, Israel's continual attempts to recruit collaborators, and the permits regime, which requires Palestinians to report to a Shin Bet security service investigation in order to receive entry visas to Israel, creates a society in which almost nobody can be trusted.

That suspicion becomes even greater when it comes to foreigners: Every journalist who has traveled around the West Bank is familiar with the looks and the questions, the need to build trust, in the face of decades during which the Israeli system has broken up Palestinian society into ever smaller and more controllable units. Any individual can pose a danger, any stranger is seen as a potential undercover commando.

The mistarvims' activity is the most performative act of sowing this fear: sneaking, literally, into the heart of Palestinian villages, towns and cities. Unsurprisingly, those acts trigger the ultimate mistrust.

Disguising themselves as journalists in order to carry out an arrest "confirms" the link that's already there between the Israeli media and Israeli intelligence. That is a clear and present danger for the Israeli journalists who really do legitimate reporting work in the West Bank.

This point caused the Union of Journalists in Israel to issue a quick and unusual condemnation after the arrest. According to the declaration it "regards with concern the fact that the mistarvim were disguised as a film crew of journalists. This behavior is liable to endanger real journalists who come to do their job, and undermines freedom of the press."

The organization's announcement was laudable and necessary, though it stands isolated in the face of Israeli universities and students' unions' silence; they didn't see fit to condemn an arrest taking place in the middle of a university.

But actually the anger at exploiting journalists as cover emphasizes how Israeli journalists express outrage only when it affects us directly. There is an ongoing lack of solidarity of with Palestinian journalists per se.

There's no shortage of examples of issues requiring solidarity: Israel's use of administrative detention against Palestinian journalists is a clear example, closing media outlets and confiscating equipment is another, not to mention the physical harm Palestinian journalists suffer during the course of their work.

Palestinian journalists do not enjoy the same protection as Israeli (or foreign) journalists. The most basic example is that while Israeli journalists can travel freely in the West Bank, without any need for a permit except for a press card from the Israeli Government Press Office, Palestinian journalists must receive an entry visa to Israel, which often involves questioning by the Shin Bet.

Even when they manage to receive an entry permit and to enter Israel, their coverage is limited compared to that of Israelis, since – in contrast to Israeli or foreign journalists – Palestinian journalists are rarely granted a GPO press card. The absence of the card means a restriction on entry to official events as well as on freedom of movement within and beyond the Green Line.

During the Temple Mount crisis (in which Palestinians protested against Israel's installation of metal detectors at the site's entrance), some Palestinian journalists with entry visas to Israel were prevented from reporting in Jerusalem's Old City because they had no press card.

The huge differences between the Israeli and Palestinians' ability to report, and the decided silence of Israeli journalists on behalf of their Palestinian peers, exposes the lack of any real collegiality, and constitutes an implicit collusion with limiting the freedom of the press.

And finally, there is the question of how the Israeli media covers the IDF's incursions into Palestinian territory itself. Here, too, the arrest of Al-Kiswani can serve as an enlightening example. Most of the popular press jumped on analogies to "Fauda", the Israeli TV series about Israeli undercover counter-terrorism agents infiltrating suspected Palestinian terror groups which has gained acclaim as a Netflix series in the U.S.

"Fauda in Birzeit" was the headline on the Ynet news website, and Kan, the Israeli public broadcaster, called the arrest video "Fauda in reality." The latter heading is especially absurd, because it suggests that "reality" is now conforming to the primary verisimilitude of the small screen.

While in the past most Israelis were rarely exposed to the activity of the Mistarvim and the Shin Bet in the West Bank, the airing of "Fauda" has paradoxically created additional distance rather than closer ties. The series allows Israelis to view events in the West Bank like scenes from an action movie: distant, alienated, imaginary.

Why was Al-Kiswani arrested? Was arresting him in his university office even legitimate? Those critical questions won't even arise. Rather, we Israelis are mesmerized instead by the mistarvims' guntoting stunts - just like in "Fauda."
Last edited by Butch Manly on 11 Mar 2018, 17:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 16:56

Geezee, do you remember the DBSF / DPET?, by any chance?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 11 Mar 2018, 17:12

Thanks for posting those - I read about the university incident and had seen that blog post. In truth the subjugation of Palestinians is so complete that it is difficult to see a way forward.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 18:19

Nick wrote:You think there aren't a lot of people, mostly on the left, who single out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world?


Are you serious, Nick? I honestly don't know anyone who "singles out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world." Stop being so overdramatic. It's not the entity that's targeted but the behaviour.

Douglas Murray et al have a problem with an entire culture/religion (irrespective of how lovely the demonised individuals might or might not be). I just have a problem with the policy of a regime to victimise and disenfranchise a body of people. My problem is easily resolved; Murray's less so.

Say, if Israel were to suddenly accept its 1967 borders and convincingly commit itself to a two state solution. I'm not naive enough to think that that would "solve" the Middle East but it'd be a huge step in the right direction, no? Unless you don't believe in a two state solution.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 18:34

Nick wrote:
Belle Lettre wrote:It does sound like a loose cannon. I've left a couple of groups myself.


I have too. Membership of a social media group is not necessarily a smoking gun in itself.

But what matters now is what Corbyn's reaction is. He has a lot of work to do if he's going to convince people there's nothing to this, because there has been so much smoke and some real fire about this sort of thing in Labour over the past couple of years. The catastrophically mismanaged Chakrabarti 'enquiry' only made things worse. Joan Ryan is, I think, quite right to press him for proper, solid action on antisemitism within Labour.

A lot of people will only buy the 'we are against antisemitism andallotherformsofracism' schtick for so long. I know numerous people, previously solid Labour voters (far more so than me), who've long since washed their hands of Corbyn's Labour because of it.


Because of the supposed antisemitism? Interesting. I have a Jewish friend who is delighted that Corbyn is now leader. I also have a Corbynista colleague whose husband is Jewish - they both love him.

Not representative, I know, but useful to think about when presented with this notion that all Jews are feeling uneasy and threatened by Corbyn and this strangely-unapparent antisemitism.

Do you, by any chance, know any people who have joined the Labour party because Corbyn is now leader?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 18:48

German Dave wrote:Are you serious, Nick? I honestly don't know anyone who "singles out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world." Stop being so overdramatic. It's not the entity that's targeted but the behaviour.

Douglas Murray et al have a problem with an entire culture/religion (irrespective of how lovely the demonised individuals might or might not be). I just have a problem with the policy of a regime to victimise and disenfranchise a body of people. My problem is easily resolved; Murray's less so.

Say, if Israel were to suddenly accept its 1967 borders and convincingly commit itself to a two state solution. I'm not naive enough to think that that would "solve" the Middle East but it'd be a huge step in the right direction, no? Unless you don't believe in a two state solution.



I'm entirely serious. I know a few people who like you, post regularly on what they see as injustices perpetrated by Israel. All of them almost never post about injustices perpetrated by any other country, unless it's the USA. Or Saudi Arabia, when they can conveniently link it to the Tories.

They never seem to post about the numerous countries whose human rights violations are far worse than Israel's. China's just confirmed a dictator for life. And yet not a peep about it from the people I know who are perpetually outraged about the transgressions of Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu.

Murray dislikes Islam because it's inimical to him as a classical liberal thinker, atheist, and gay man. I share that antipathy. If you can't see why we feel like that, I'm surprised. In fact, let me ask you, why don't you share that antipathy? You've posted numerous times on social media in favour of rights for gay and transgender people. Under an Islamic government those people would be publicly hung from cranes or flung off the tops of tall buildings. Will you condemn that ideology? As you say, it's not the entity that's targeted, but the behaviour. I've read Murray extensively and I don't recall him ever making a critical remark about Muslims as individuals, only ever about the ideology.

You've criticised Murray before as being an Islamophobe. If being critical of Islam as an ideology counts, then count me as a firm Islamophobe too. I will happily place myself in firm opposition to an ideology that hates, oppresses and denigrates women, gays, Jews and 'apostates'.

Re: Israel and the 1967 borders, I think it would be a significant and very generous gesture, and I'd admire the Israeli administration for making it. Whether it would further a genuine peace process would then be up to the Palestinians.
Last edited by Insouciant Western People on 11 Mar 2018, 19:05, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 18:56

German Dave wrote: I have a Jewish friend who is delighted that Corbyn is now leader. I also have a Corbynista colleague whose husband is Jewish - they both love him.

Not representative, I know, but useful to think about when presented with this notion that all Jews are feeling uneasy and threatened by Corbyn and this strangely-unapparent antisemitism.

Do you, by any chance, know any people who have joined the Labour party because Corbyn is now leader?


I'd say they are unrepresentative. The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader. I know a fair few Jewish people, and I can think of only one or two (among maybe twenty or more) who aren't worried by Corbyn as leader. Not an empirical survey by any means, but there it is.

The antisemitism within Labour is obviously not unapparent. It is all too evident.

I know a few, people like Lenny & Jane, people from what I'd describe as a strongly leftist background, who felt betrayed by the Blair administration and have rejoined since he became leader.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Mar 2018, 19:02

Nick wrote: The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader.


Is there any evidence of this?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 19:05

Nick wrote:[
Murray dislikes Islam because it's inimical to him as a classical liberal thinker, atheist, and gay man. I share that antipathy. If you can't see why we feel like that, I'm surprised. In fact, let me ask you, why don't you share that antipathy? You've posted numerous times on social media in favour of rights for gay and transgender people. Under an Islamic government those people would be publicly hung from cranes or flung off the tops of tall buildings. Will you condemn that ideology?


It's fascinating how you can't see the difference. Of course I've no truck with the misogyny or homophobia of Islam (just as I've no truck with the misogyny and homophobia of the Bible Belt, for example) but one has to pick one's battles and realise that some things you just ain't going to change in your lifetime - certainly not by spouting islamophobic bile like Murray does.

When I see my female Muslim colleagues - some in hijabs; some not - I am aware that they exist in a certain world (each one individual - some quite oppressive, others less oppressive even than than some of their christian colleagues) but that it is not Douglas Murray's nor my place to somehow "rescue" them from that world because whatever I or Murray might imagine it is, it is not that. And I am absolutely certain that they would find his attitude to their life really quite repulsive because it is a self-serving, jaundiced view which actually demonises them much more than liberates them.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Eddie Shah environment » 11 Mar 2018, 19:08

German Dave wrote:
Nick wrote:You think there aren't a lot of people, mostly on the left, who single out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world?


Are you serious, Nick? I honestly don't know anyone who "singles out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world."


:shock:

It positively defines quite a few people I know! It's a classic left-wing viewpoint. Israel is seen as an extension of the USA in the region.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 19:10

Nick wrote:
I'd say they are unrepresentative. The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader. I know a fair few Jewish people, and I can think of only one or two (among maybe twenty or more) who aren't worried by Corbyn as leader. Not an empirical survey by any means, but there it is.


Well, it's common knowledge that the Jewish Chronicle is after him because he is so critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people - no great surprise at all. It's a classic smear campaign.

The antisemitism within Labour is obviously not unapparent. It is all too evident.


:?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Goat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 19:11

THE NIGHT BEAK wrote:
German Dave wrote:
Nick wrote:You think there aren't a lot of people, mostly on the left, who single out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world?


Are you serious, Nick? I honestly don't know anyone who "singles out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world."


:shock:

It positively defines quite a few people I know! It's a classic left-wing viewpoint. Israel is seen as an extension of the USA in the region.


Of course. The two go hand in hand. Christ just look at the hatred of America on the left. If you extend that to Muslim countries worldwide then lots of people despise Israel and America. I’ve met them.
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