Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

I prefer....

Jacob
13
33%
Jezzer
27
68%
 
Total votes: 40

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Butch Manly
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 19:20

Diamond Dog wrote:Sorry - independent evidence.


:lol:
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 19:20

German Dave wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:Maybe there's some good stuff on that website. I've seen you and Carol posting links from there before but it's obviously hopelessly biased and when it has people like this writing for it then you'll excuse me for not bothering as a matter of principle.

https://twitter.com/RanaGaza/status/477498490445398016

https://twitter.com/RanaGaza/status/477491610977333248

Here she is: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rana-baker


Apologies for temporarily abandoning this thread - Been mad busy with work then Frank's been staying for the weekend.

Dougie, thanks for posting that - I was unaware of it, obviously. Vile of Baker to post those tweets. Sadly, in a conflict/dispute like this, you're bound to get some hateful bile from some quarters on either side. What I will say is that she apparently used to write the occasional article for the Grauniad too but nothing since those tweets. Similarly, it looks like Electronic Intifada dropped her pretty soon after the two offensive tweets. I intend to write to EI for clarification of their position on this sort of thing.

In the meantime, as I've said, I will continue to read EI because it often reports facts which, sadly, are not picked up on by the mainstream news outlets.

Do you ever read Jonathan Cook's blog? He's an award-winning ex-Guardian journalist who now lives in and reports from Nazareth. Here is his latest post:

The lies and self-deceptions at work within Israel’s ‘moral’ army
4 March 2018
The National – 4 March 2018

It is has been a very bad week for those claiming Israel has the most moral army in the world. Here’s a small sample of abuses of Palestinians in recent days in which the Israeli army was caught lying.

A child horrifically injured by soldiers was arrested and terrified into signing a false confession that he was hurt in a bicycle accident. A man who, it was claimed, had died of tear-gas inhalation was actually shot at point-blank range, then savagely beaten by a mob of soldiers and left to die. And soldiers threw a tear gas canister at a Palestinian couple, baby in arms, as they fled for safety during a military invasion of their village.

In the early 2000s, at the dawn of the social media revolution, Israelis used to dismiss filmed evidence of brutality by their soldiers as fakery. It was what they called “Pallywood” – a conflation of Palestinian and Hollywood.

In truth, however, it was the Israeli military, not the Palestinians, that needed to manufacture a more convenient version of reality.

Last week, it emerged, Israeli officials had conceded to a military court that the army had beaten and locked up a group of Palestinian reporters as part of an explicit policy of stopping journalists from covering abuses by its soldiers.

Israel’s deceptions have a long history. Back in the 1970s, a young Juliano Meir-Khamis, later to become one of Israel’s most celebrated actors, was assigned the job of carrying a weapons bag on operations in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. When Palestinian women or children were killed, he placed a weapon next to the body.

In one incident, when soldiers playing around with a shoulder-launcher fired a missile at a donkey, and the 12-year-old girl riding it, Meir-Khamis was ordered to put explosives on their remains.


That occurred before the Palestinians’ first mass uprising against the occupation erupted in the late 1980s. Then, the defence minister Yitzhak Rabin – later given a Hollywood-style makeover himself as a peacemaker – urged troops to “break the bones” of Palestinians to stop their liberation struggle.

The desperate, and sometimes self-sabotaging, lengths Israel takes to try to salvage its image were underscored last week when 15-year-old Mohammed Tamimi was grabbed from his bed in a night raid.

Back in December he was shot in the face by soldiers during an invasion of his village of Nabi Saleh. Doctors saved his life, but he was left with a misshapen head and a section of skull missing.

Mohammed’s suffering made headlines because he was a bit-player in a larger drama. Shortly after he was shot, a video recorded his cousin, 16-year-old Ahed Tamimi, slapping a soldier nearby after he entered her home.

Ahed, who is in jail awaiting trial, was already a Palestinian resistance icon. Now she has become a symbol too of Israel’s victimisation of children.


So, Israel began work on recrafting the narrative: of Ahed as a terrorist and provocateur.

It emerged that a government minister, Michael Oren, had even set up a secret committee to try to prove that Ahed and her family were really paid actors, not Palestinians, there to “make Israel look bad”. The Pallywood delusion had gone into overdrive.

Last week events took a new turn as Mohammed and other relatives were seized, even though he is still gravely ill. Dragged off to an interrogation cell, he was denied access to a lawyer or parent.

Shortly afterwards, Israel produced a signed confession stating that Mohammed’s horrific injuries were not Israel’s responsibility but wounds inflicted in a bicycle crash.


Yoav Mordechai, the occupation’s top official, trumpeted proof of a Palestinian “culture of lies and incitement”. Mohammed’s injuries were “fake news”, the Israeli media dutifully reported.

Deprived of a justification for slapping an occupation soldier, Ahed can now be locked away by military judges. Except that witnesses, phone records and hospital documentation, including brain scans, all prove that Mohammed was shot.

This was simply another of Israellywood’s endless productions to automatically confer guilt on Palestinians. The hundreds of children on Israel’s incarceration production line each year have to sign confessions – or plea bargains – to win jail-sentence reductions from courts with near-100% conviction rates.

It is more Franz Kafka than Hollywood.

A second army narrative unravelled last week. CCTV showed Yasin Saradih, 35, being shot at point-blank range during an invasion of Jericho, then savagely beaten by soldiers as he lay wounded, and left to bleed to death.

It was an unexceptional incident. A report by Amnesty International last month noted that many of the dozens of Palestinians killed in 2017 appeared to be victims of extra-judicial executions.


Before footage of Saradih’s killing surfaced, the army issued a series of false statements, including that he died from tear-gas inhalation, received first-aid treatment and was armed with a knife. The video disproves all of that.

Over the past two years, dozens of Palestinians, including women and children, have been shot in similarly suspicious circumstances. Invariably the army concludes that they were killed while attacking soldiers with a knife – Israel even named this period of unrest a “knife intifada”.

Are soldiers today carrying a “knife bag”, just as Meir-Khamis once carried a weapons bag?

A half-century of occupation has not only corrupted generations of teenage Israeli soldiers who have been allowed to lord it over Palestinians. It has also needed an industry of lies and self-deceptions to make sure the consciences of Israelis are never clouded by a moment of doubt – that maybe their army is not so moral after all.


Anti-Israel propaganda? Or just the reportage of criminally-ignored extra-judicial actions by the Israeli state against its own citizens? Seems to be the latter to me. Some democracy if it is.

For the record, although I have mixed feelings to say the least about "Zionism" in all its forms and meanings, I have always had a great sympathy for the plight of, and disgust at the historical treatment of, Jews down the centuries. Whenever I am in a foreign city I will research and visit any historic Jewish quarter that might exist there. I have visited various Jewish museums all over Europe including Warsaw's magnificent new Jewish Museum on both of my last two visits to that city. I have, as well, been on over half a dozen Jewish-themed walking tours of East London over the last ten years. I say all of this because I suspect that I might be seen as an anti-semite by some on this thread. I most certainly am not. And although I look skeptically at the creation of the Israeli state as a Western imperialist means to an end, I think that that is an irrelevance these days. Israel is there so any desire or aim to somehow get rid of it is misguided at best, evil-minded at worst.

So, the only solution has to be a Two State one.

With that in mind, surely it is right to lambast in the strongest possible terms the Israeli de facto policy of stealing Palestinian land and placing Israeli "settlers" on it. Everyone surely can see that that is only going to sabotage any possibility of a two state solution.

I asked Nick earlier, how come, if he's for a two state solution, he doesn't criticise Israel's sabotaging of it. Not sure if he's answered that so I'll read the rest of the thread now.


Dougie? Nick?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 19:22

German Dave wrote:Well, it's common knowledge that the Jewish Chronicle is after him because he is so critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people - no great surprise at all. It's a classic smear campaign.


You don't think it might - just might - be that they think he harbours a certain hostility to the existence of Israel?

I mean, y'know, based on the fact that he's spent the last few decades hanging out and making common cause with people whose attitude might be more or less characterised as being fairly hostile to Jews and the State of Israel?
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 19:31

German Dave wrote:I asked Nick earlier, how come, if he's for a two state solution, he doesn't criticise Israel's sabotaging of it. Not sure if he's answered that so I'll read the rest of the thread now.


I am critical of it. The Israeli government and the likes of the lunatic-fringe settler movement are hugely at fault. But they are not the only transgressors. I'm yet to hear a word of condemnation from you Griff about the murderously racist rhetoric of Hamas, the suicide bombings (which by the way is the reason for the so-called 'apartheid wall'), brainwashing child soldiers, the Al Qassam brigades' homicidal campaign against Jewish civilians, the widespread condoning of stabbings and car ramming murders on pro-Palestinian websites and social media, and the massively antisemitic propaganda spread on pro-Palestinian social media - the latter of which which I've pointed out to you on a couple of occasions, once on a Facebook page you'd liked, and you admitted as much.

I've met you halfway on this stuff, in terms of condemning Israeli government policy. How about you start condemning the numerous crimes of the Palestinians, eh? Or are you going to condone murderous antisemitism?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 19:36

German Dave wrote:Corbyn > critical of country known to be oppressing another people > bad for me


Or is it Corbyn > is friends with people like the PSC, Hamas, George Galloway, Ken Livingstone, Stephen Sizer, Raed Salah and takes money for appearing on Press TV > bad for me?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Goat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 19:45

German Dave wrote:
Dougie? Nick?


What do you expect me to say to that? How awful it is? It's not like I am on Israels "side" you know and that's the point. I feel like when it comes to this issue there's an expectation that one should pick a "side" and to not do so is immoral. And naturally the left favours one over the other but that doesn't work for me personally so I reject it. That's partly why I posted that link about the kidnapping to remind us all that the "settlers" in question were teenage boys and whilst it's very easy to use language that dehumanises both sides and makes people somehow "guilty" by virtue of the group they belong to that makes me feel very uncomfortable and I don't think it's helpful. It's too binary for me.

I don't believe for a second that you are an anti-semite either btw but I do believe there is a problem with anti-semitism on the left and that for a number of reasons, some of which I outlined in another post some are blind to this. I think Corbyn doesn't see this.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 19:47

German Dave wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Sorry - independent evidence.


:lol:


Like the Electronic Intifada 'journalism' you repeatedly post on social media?

You do have a nerve.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Butch Manly » 11 Mar 2018, 19:49

Nick wrote:
German Dave wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Sorry - independent evidence.


:lol:


Like the Electronic Intifada 'journalism' you repeatedly post on social media?

You do have a nerve.


I just laughed and used an emoticon to show it. Sorry, didn't mean much by it.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Samoan » 11 Mar 2018, 19:51

I blame Ed Miliband

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Deebank » 11 Mar 2018, 19:52

My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 19:58

THE NIGHT BEAK wrote:
German Dave wrote:
Nick wrote:You think there aren't a lot of people, mostly on the left, who single out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world?


Are you serious, Nick? I honestly don't know anyone who "singles out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world."


:shock:

It positively defines quite a few people I know! It's a classic left-wing viewpoint. Israel is seen as an extension of the USA in the region.


It is also a very common position in the Middle East, and Islamic areas of South Asia. And that is a fairly liberal viewpoint for those regions.

I've found it fairly common over the past dozen years of working in these regions to have conversations with people that have included them trotting out variations on "well you know, it was the Jews wot dun it" in reference to everything from the rise of Hitler, through the Kennedy assassinations to the death of Princess Diana, 9/11, and the invasions or Afghanistan and Iraq.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 20:00

Deebank wrote:My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!


I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out :D
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Deebank » 11 Mar 2018, 20:14

Nick wrote:
Deebank wrote:My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!


I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out :D


That figures.

One of the real fighters against fascism who has actually faced down real violent anti-semitism.

Like I say - fight on TG.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 11 Mar 2018, 20:15

The difference between abstract reasoning and the reality on the ground?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 20:38

Goat Boy wrote:
German Dave wrote:
Dougie? Nick?


What do you expect me to say to that? How awful it is? It's not like I am on Israels "side" you know and that's the point. I feel like when it comes to this issue there's an expectation that one should pick a "side" and to not do so is immoral. And naturally the left favours one over the other but that doesn't work for me personally so I reject it.


This is it, exactly.

Griff seems to take the point of view that if you are not meticulously recording and condemning every infringement of human rights committed by the Israelis, the you're somehow morally deficient, and in need of being shamed and held to account. In this narrative every scuffle between Palestinians and Israelis is a moral outrage committed by the Zionist oppressors, every death of a Palestinian is part of a massacre (the deaths of Israelis at the hands of Palestinians are never mentioned, unless it's as part of a campaign of stabbing Israelis being bigged up by racist idiots on social media), every military attack by the IDF on Hamas forces is part of a genocide. There's no recognition that there are two sides fighting. That hostilities often stem from Hamas and the Palestinians too.

That 18 year old Israeli soldiers might well be pissed off by Palestinians lobbing fucking huge rocks and Molotov cocktails at them, and retaliate. That normal, liberal Israelis who have sympathy for the Palestinians' cause might object to being demonised for defending their country against people who blatantly want them murdered. That they might have grandparents who survived or died in the Holocaust and as a result, are just a bit fucking angry when dealing with people whose political proponents go in for lauding Hitler and punting antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Yes, we know the Palestinian side of things too. As I've pointed out, I've been at pains to be even-handed here. But there's no meeting in the middle ground, is there?

Apologies for going off on one, but this stuff infuriates me, you know?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 11 Mar 2018, 20:44

Deebank wrote:
Nick wrote:
Deebank wrote:My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!


I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out :D


That figures.

One of the real fighters against fascism who has actually faced down real violent anti-semitism.

Like I say - fight on TG.


:lol:

Oh please, have a word with yourself. Greenstein is on record with some shocking stuff. It's no surprise Labour binned him.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 11 Mar 2018, 20:47

Hamas didn't just appear from a vacuum, you know. You can't look at any of these things out of context. It's a clusterfuck whichever way you look at it.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Deebank » 11 Mar 2018, 21:24

Nick wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Nick wrote:
I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out :D


That figures.

One of the real fighters against fascism who has actually faced down real violent anti-semitism.

Like I say - fight on TG.


:lol:

Oh please, have a word with yourself. Greenstein is on record with some shocking stuff. It's no surprise Labour binned him.


Know him do you? Or just swallow the cobblers you’re fed?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Deebank » 11 Mar 2018, 21:41

K wrote:The crazy thing is, even after all these pages of debate, the answer is still Corbyn, It is never Rees Mogg, is it?


:)

Yep - and I’ve never been what you’d call a fan.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 22:45

Diamond Dog wrote:
Nick wrote: The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader.


Is there any evidence of this?


It would be difficult to dig such small numbers of voters out of the massive, nearly 50%, increase in the Labour vote since Labour voted Jeremy Corbyn as leader, back up to 44% in the latest Survation poll; treat that information as you will but Survation were the only polling company to get the last election right which shows they are the best of a bad lot when it comes to choosing their samples.

Regardless no one can deny the massive surge in Labour support under Jeremy Corbyn, the Jewish vote is an irrelevance, if they want to believe extreme right wing propaganda that a man who has spent his whole life fighting racism in all its forms is an anti-Semite more fool them, it is meaningless in the larger scheme if sad.

Before Going to Uni I was very pro-Israel, that was pretty easy in the 70s and early 80s, and even after becoming a lefty it wasn't something I gave a whole lot of thought to, until I lived on the same corridor as Palestinian botanist called Ebir when I did my Masters and she sat me down and explained to me the realities of being a West Bank Palestinian. Things have got so much worse since then as Griff's posts show, they live under an occupying force that has become home to a minority inured to murderous violence without consequences.

A sad country in thrall to a right wing kleptocracy kept in power by fear, not only sad for the Palestinians shot on the streets and bulldozed from their homes but for the millions of decent Israelis who abhor this being done in their name.

A solution seems further away with each passing year
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