Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

I prefer....

Jacob
13
33%
Jezzer
27
68%
 
Total votes: 40

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Diamond Dog
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2018, 16:24

"Engage is a single issue campaign. It focuses on one issue, antisemitism, and is therefore concerned also about the demonization of Israel, and of Jews who don’t think of themselves as anti-Zionists. We believe that a new commonsense is emerging that holds Israel to be a central and fundamental evil in the world. "

No, he's a real free thinker.

Got me there, Nick.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Goat Boy » 09 Mar 2018, 16:39

Belle Lettre wrote:He means that anyone who shares articles from the Electronic Intifada is automatically discredited across the board because the person who tweeted about the kidnappings has contributed to EI.


My original post:

Maybe there's some good stuff on that website. I've seen you and Carol posting links from there before but it's obviously hopelessly biased and when it has people like this writing for it then you'll excuse me for not bothering as a matter of principle.


I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is stuff worth reading on there but because it's hopelessly biased and because it employs people like that as a matter of personal principle I'm not interested. I should add that I'm not particularly interested in reading about the conflict anyway but there you go.

I then say...

You're the ones posting links from that website and thereby supporting people like that whether you like it or not. You are helping to give them a platform, legitimacy. Arseholes who revel in the kidnapping of "settlers".


Which I stand by. Regardless of the "factual" articles by sharing links from a website you are supporting that website and the people who write and own it. I feel the same about the Daily Mail or the Sun regardless of how factual the links are and I suspect you do too, you know? The fact that the co-founder- Ali Abunimah - actually comments on a thread relating to her Twitter post supporting her here:

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/477590375797096448

Shows that he A. he doesn't disagree with it and B. this kind of vile shit is clearly tolerated and, presumably agreed with by the co-founder of the website. I'm not discrediting you, I'm simply asking is that a website you really want to link to, you know?
Last edited by Goat Boy on 09 Mar 2018, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Mar 2018, 16:42

I'm not sure I have for a while. And there are plenty of others I use. But no, I didn't rush off to check all the writers' Twitter accounts. Mea culpa, as Rees-Mogg would say!
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Mar 2018, 16:48

What then seems to have happened is Copehead was seen to be somehow excusing the kidnappings by questioning the legality of the settlements. I do not think he meant to do this.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Deebank » 09 Mar 2018, 16:48

THE NIGHT BEAK wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Belle Lettre wrote:He means that anyone who shares articles from the Electronic Intifada is automatically discredited across the board because the person who tweeted about the kidnappings has contributed to EI.


Who means?
I'm getting quite confused who we're talking about here. And I don't know why JC and Goat Boy thought it was so important for us to respond to Minnie's post -which was just an insult with no explanation of what she was referring to.


I didn't say it was important - I was just surprised the discussion had ended so abruptly. Especially considering how blunt her response was.


I’m pretty sure Will has her on ignore, so perhaps not so surprising.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 16:56

Diamond Dog wrote:"Engage is a single issue campaign. It focuses on one issue, antisemitism, and is therefore concerned also about the demonization of Israel, and of Jews who don’t think of themselves as anti-Zionists. We believe that a new commonsense is emerging that holds Israel to be a central and fundamental evil in the world. "

No, he's a real free thinker.

Got me there, Nick.


You think there aren't a lot of people, mostly on the left, who single out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world?

Go on pretty much any left wing online forum, and I cast-iron guarantee you, you won't have to scroll down for long before you come across something traducing Israel.

Always, singly, obsessively Israel. Not other countries with far, far worse human rights records. Just Israel.

Are there widespread academic campaigns to boycott other countries of which I'm unaware?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Mar 2018, 17:00

Do you not think that might be because they are so keen to promote themselves as the only real democracy in the Middle East, and people feel they don't live up to it?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2018, 17:08

"We believe that a new commonsense is emerging that holds Israel to be a central and fundamental evil in the world. "

There are may who do hold those views. Based, one would imagine, on that State's flagrant breach of human rights and transparent refusal to comply with UN resolutions over many decades.

However, I'd hardly say it's a 'new commonsense", which implies a commonly held view by many (maybe most) of those expressing a view on the subject.

By the way Nick - from the Engage website :

"According to its founding statement,[2] the organisation

opposes Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Engage is in favour of the foundation of a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel.
opposes the idea of an academic or cultural boycott of Israel.
aims to encourage, facilitate and publicise positive links between Israeli, Palestinian, British and global academia.
stands up against antisemitism in universities, in unions and in students unions. In Engage's opinion, opposing the sometimes brutal actions of the Israeli government and army is not antisemitic, but certain expressions of criticism of Israel constitute antisemitism."

I'm assuming you're as happy with all of those points of principle, not just the parts referring to boycotts etc?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 19:22

Diamond Dog wrote:By the way Nick - from the Engage website :

"According to its founding statement,[2] the organisation

opposes Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Engage is in favour of the foundation of a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel.
opposes the idea of an academic or cultural boycott of Israel.
aims to encourage, facilitate and publicise positive links between Israeli, Palestinian, British and global academia.
stands up against antisemitism in universities, in unions and in students unions. In Engage's opinion, opposing the sometimes brutal actions of the Israeli government and army is not antisemitic, but certain expressions of criticism of Israel constitute antisemitism."

I'm assuming you're as happy with all of those points of principle, not just the parts referring to boycotts etc?


Of course I am. I don't think I've ever expressed anything to the contrary of any of those opinions. Some of what follows may surprise you. Let me set this down for the record.

Despite what the lunatic Copehead might think I'm not a fascist, nor a contrarian. I would define myself as a Zionist in that I believe Israel should exist as a Jewish homeland, for many reasons but if nothing else, if only for the guaranteed safety of one of the most persecuted peoples ever to have existed. I hold this view in the same way that I think the Native American/First Nation peoples should have homeland enclaves of their own. And that any dispossessed, persecuted or disputed peoples, whether it's the Kurds, Roma/Sintis, Rohingyas, Balkan Muslims, Yazidis, Armenians or whoever, AND Palestinians, should have their own places to live free of persecution, as a primary principle.

As an ideal, I'd hope that people can live together amicably. In reality, I know that it is not always that simple nor easy, and that what we'd wish for cannot always happen overnight. Hence the need for states like Israel and Pakistan, for as long as they are needed.

I think the Palestinians as a people have often been treated badly by the Israelis, and by their Arab neighbours (who have often cynically manipulated their plight for their own ends and as a stick with which to bash Israel), and served badly by their leaders from time to time - as have the Israelis from time to time. As with the USA, I am a great admirer of the founding principles of Israel. That doesn't mean I agree with everything those countries do - in the same way that I'd count myself as an English patriot, albeit one who is often critical of what this country has done, in the same way that one can love a family member or a friend, and still not be blind to their faults.

For the record, I think the Palestinians should have their own state, and that ideally, Israel should exist within its 1948 borders. The question of Jerusalem being a debate for a different day altogether - let's not pick at that particularly painful religious scab for now.

I deplore and absolutely condemn the lunatic millenarian violent headcases who think that their being Jewish entitles them in the name of their god to annex land which is not theirs. I despise bullies and thugs also as a primary principle.

None of this, I think, contradicts the fact that I support Israel as a principle, if not always in practice, in the same way that I'd support my own country, and (for example) the USA. No countries are perfect, nor will they ever be. If you're looking for a utopia, the earth and humankind are the wrong places to seek it. Nonetheless, I think that some countries are better places to live than others. And in Israel's favour, it is a committedly democratic state, that has a good (though not perfect) record of tolerance and emancipation, not just in the region (to state the bleeding obvious, given the attitudes to homosexuality and womens' rights across the rest of the MENA area, not to mention all of sub-Saharan Africa and most of South Asia) but globally. Israel is a flawed democracy, and there is much to criticise. But you could say that of any country, for better or worse. And I absolutely reject the idea that it is a pariah among nations, or somehow worse than anywhere else, or that the Israelis have acted in a worse way than any nation would, put in the same position.

As Luther said, here I stand, I can do not other etc etc.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2018, 19:30

Good answer. It seems we're not so far apart. I think you do give the Israeli's more credit than their actions warrant (particularly in regards to the complete refusal to comply with UN resolutions), but I also accept you genuinely believe in both a Jewish & a Palestinian state.

Sadly whilst the USA is the pawn broker, it's my honest opinion that will never be achieved because they have a long held, vested interest in the State of Israel, that they do not in a State Of Palestine.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 09 Mar 2018, 19:47

Diamond Dog wrote:Good answer. It seems we're not so far apart. I think you do give the Israeli's more credit than their actions warrant (particularly in regards to the complete refusal to comply with UN resolutions), but I also accept you genuinely believe in both a Jewish & a Palestinian state.


Cheers Pete. Hey, I'm critical of the actions of Likud. On the other hand, I also understand why a lot of Israelis (out of absolutely understandable reasons of self-preservation) want a seriously large buffer zone between them and the Syrian regime, Hizbollah, ISIS, Hamas etc (given that these are all people who want all Jews dead), and are none too fussy about how it's achieved, just as a lot of Palestinians throw in their lot with whoever's going to stand up for them - be it Fatah or Hamas. As a Greek proverb has it, in times of trouble you go to your own. Or as the Yanks would say, you dance with them that brung you.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Mar 2018, 21:52

You set out your stall very well, Nick. I don't agree with it all but I can appreciate that. Though it's a touch idealistic.

You didn't say what you thought of my suggestion for the reason Israel is often singled out for opprobrium?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Copehead » 09 Mar 2018, 22:14

Nick wrote:Despite what the lunatic Copehead might think I'm not a fascist, nor a contrarian..


I've never said you were; I've said you are hysterical and irrational when it comes to Jeremy Corbyn. That makes you neither a fascist not a contrarian it makes you hysterical and irrational.
I think you would probably agree with him on the vast majority of his program, you have just somehow convinced yourself he is a dangerous left wing extremist in the face of piles of evidence that he is a mild mannered, vegetarian, allotment tending, sandal wearing, social democrat, pacifist with nasty tendency to tell the truth in boring detail and an economic program that was considered Conservative policy as little as 40 years ago.

And Deebank has the answer as to why there was no response from me to whatever Minnie wrote.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Minnie the Minx » 09 Mar 2018, 22:40

Copehead wrote:
Nick wrote:Despite what the lunatic Copehead might think I'm not a fascist, nor a contrarian..


I've never said you were; I've said you are hysterical and irrational when it comes to Jeremy Corbyn. That makes you neither a fascist not a contrarian it makes you hysterical and irrational.
I think you would probably agree with him on the vast majority of his program, you have just somehow convinced yourself he is a dangerous left wing extremist in the face of piles of evidence that he is a mild mannered, vegetarian, allotment tending, sandal wearing, social democrat, pacifist with nasty tendency to tell the truth in boring detail and an economic program that was considered Conservative policy as little as 40 years ago.

And Deebank has the answer as to why there was no response from me to whatever Minnie wrote.


Aye!
Except for the other week, when I pointed out you had spelt 'fascist' incorrectly and you scrabbled in and edited your post seconds later.

Silly little man.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Minnie the Minx » 09 Mar 2018, 22:42

Now he's thinking 'how can I write that I had noticed that I had spelt fascist wrong myself, without alerting everyone to the fact that I just read what she wrote DOH'
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Sneelock » 09 Mar 2018, 22:45

I try my hardest to spell it correctly every other time I write it.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 15:11

Belle Lettre wrote:Do you not think that might be because they are so keen to promote themselves as the only real democracy in the Middle East, and people feel they don't live up to it?


For some people, I'm sure it is.

I think there's an obvious problem with that view though, in that it doesn't take into account the significant fact that Israel is and always has been in a uniquely perilous situation with regard to its security. Put any other democracy in the same situation and I doubt any of them would acquit themselves in an unimpeachable manner either.
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Fonz » 10 Mar 2018, 17:22

Do Palestinians have equal rights?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Fonz » 10 Mar 2018, 17:23

Do they have equal access to healthcare and education?
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Re: Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Mar 2018, 17:42

Copehead wrote:... you have just somehow convinced yourself he is a dangerous left wing extremist in the face of piles of evidence that he is a mild mannered, vegetarian, allotment tending, sandal wearing, social democrat, pacifist.


Well, this is interesting. I'm looking forward to Copehead's 'explanation' of this one.

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