Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Tonto Papadopoulos
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 20:01

Nick wrote:And that's before we get to the obvious primary point that there's a good case that Wikileaks has willfully endangered lives.


A bit like western foreign policy.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 20:03

Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I really don’t know a thing about where he stands legally. But Nick is right...he’s no journalist.


And the CIA and FBI are not my parents but they can still peek into my computer history and read my email. It's not like it used to be, It's a new kind of ball game. Wikileaks is a tattling bulwark against this kind of government overreach. It let's them know that we're watching them while they watch us.


That's a pretty decent point.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 20:06

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Jumbo - I know that you like to romanticize “outsiders” - so I see why you fall for this shit. But it’s pretty clear that Assange selectively decides who his targets are. He’s a propagandist. Only the dimmest of the dim still buy the idea that Wikileaks is about bringing truth to light.



:?
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 20:21

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: Let me ask you this: Ever see Wikileaks dump any embarrassing Russian documents out?


Apparently so.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-11893886


You had to dig back to 2010 for that!


And?
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby PENK » 16 Feb 2018, 21:07

German Dave wrote:
Nick wrote:And that's before we get to the obvious primary point that there's a good case that Wikileaks has willfully endangered lives.


A bit like western foreign policy.


Do two wrongs make a right?
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby bobzilla77 » 16 Feb 2018, 21:35

I have mixed feelings about Wikileaks, and I’m not up to speed on the state of the accusations against him. But in my view, if you’re going to break laws as a matter of principle, then you must be willing to do time as a matter of principle. So Yomp is basically on point.


Yeah I think that's fair.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 16 Feb 2018, 21:42

PENK wrote:
German Dave wrote:
Nick wrote:And that's before we get to the obvious primary point that there's a good case that Wikileaks has willfully endangered lives.


A bit like western foreign policy.


Do two wrongs make a right?


I think we know who is sending Jimbo encouraging PMs.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 16 Feb 2018, 21:55

German Dave wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I really don’t know a thing about where he stands legally. But Nick is right...he’s no journalist.


And the CIA and FBI are not my parents but they can still peek into my computer history and read my email. It's not like it used to be, It's a new kind of ball game. Wikileaks is a tattling bulwark against this kind of government overreach. It let's them know that we're watching them while they watch us.


That's a pretty decent point.


It really isn’t.

It is nice to imagine a website where beneficent American patriots hold their government accountable while avoiding any other political agenda.

It’s a whole other thing to root for a foreign information terrorist with an agenda.

Conflating Assange with Manning (whom I have complicated feelings about) is dishonest. Manning was an American who (rightly or wrongly) acted out of patriotic concern. Assange doesn’t give a shit about America.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 21:57

PENK wrote:Do two wrongs make a right?


No, but a bit of perspective doesn't hurt.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Snarfyguy » 16 Feb 2018, 22:01

German Dave wrote:
PENK wrote:Do two wrongs make a right?


No, but a bit of perspective doesn't hurt.

It's not a tu quoque fallacy - it's "perspective!" ;)

I like that.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 22:12

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
It really isn’t.

It is nice to imagine a website where beneficent American patriots hold their government accountable while avoiding any other political agenda.

It’s a whole other thing to root for a foreign information terrorist with an agenda.

Conflating Assange with Manning (whom I have complicated feelings about) is dishonest. Manning was an American who (rightly or wrongly) acted out of patriotic concern. Assange doesn’t give a shit about America.


Oh, sorry, I didn't realise we all had to give a shit only about America* - a country which illegally spies on its own citizens, illegally kidnaps and tortures people, starts illegal wars and illegally overthrows democratically elected governments.

My feelings about Manning are in no way complicated, by the way, though they are about Assange.



*(as my Colombian friend would say, "It's the United States. America is not a country." Then she'd roll her eyes and mutter "Gringos.")
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 16 Feb 2018, 22:22

“We” don’t have to care about America. But the question asked a legal question about Assange. So I’m answering from the POV of an American.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 22:29

It wasn't a good look.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby toomanyhatz » 16 Feb 2018, 22:50

Would it be better if, instead of saying Assange didn't give a shit about America, he'd said Assange doesn't give a shit about right or wrong?

'Cause that would be true regardless of American foreign policy.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby The Red Heifer » 16 Feb 2018, 22:50

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
PENK wrote:
German Dave wrote:
A bit like western foreign policy.


Do two wrongs make a right?


I think we know who is sending Jimbo encouraging PMs.


Can't wait until they're dumped online! Griffileaks!
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 22:53

The Red Heifer wrote:
Can't wait until they're dumped online! Griffileaks!


:lol:
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 22:58

toomanyhatz wrote:Would it be better if, instead of saying Assange didn't give a shit about America, he'd said Assange doesn't give a shit about right or wrong?

'Cause that would be true regardless of American foreign policy.


It wouldn't sound nearly so "can't help reading it in Yosemite Sam voice."

I'm not so sure if doesn't give a shit about right and wrong, though.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 16 Feb 2018, 23:07

German Dave wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:Would it be better if, instead of saying Assange didn't give a shit about America, he'd said Assange doesn't give a shit about right or wrong?

'Cause that would be true regardless of American foreign policy.


It wouldn't sound nearly so "can't help reading it in Yosemite Sam voice."

I'm not so sure if doesn't give a shit about right and wrong, though.


Well he’s an anarchist, so he has a value-system of some kind. It’s just exceedingly dumb.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby Tonto Papadopoulos » 16 Feb 2018, 23:13

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Well he’s an anarchist, so he has a value-system of some kind. It’s just exceedingly dumb.


Yeah, if you say so, Davey.
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Re: Should Julian Assange be free to leave?

Postby sneelock » 16 Feb 2018, 23:19

well, I think it's safe to say his priorities have changed. when wikileaks first went up it's mission statement was pretty clear. they were providing information to news organizations. it was a clearing house. great big slabs of classified info were being provided. parsing this information and assessing it's newsworthiness would be done by the news organizations.

I've spent hours poring over wikileaks stuff and there was a time when it was like oxygen to me. Obama's promised "unprecedented period of transparency in government" quickly turned into a more focused and enthusiastic dismantling of whistle blower protections than I'd ever been aware of.

It seems to me that our news organizations rose to the challenge and things like the diplomatic cables were newsworthy and made the news better at a time when I felt it had gotten very poor.

somewhere along the line this mission got sidelined. publishing people's credit card numbers? that link I posted above shows that Assange regards wikileaks, not as a clearinghouse for news organizations to speak truth to power but a blunt instrument for him to bash his enemies with.

I was very impressed with his bowling trophy until he started hitting people over the head with it.
Last edited by sneelock on 17 Feb 2018, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
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