Shooting in Florida

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby ORORORO » 24 Feb 2018, 13:49

So for a change we should be happy Trump’s in charge, because his ignorance is firing up these young people. It’s doubtful there’d be this much rage - and, as a result, this movement - if someone more (superficially) sympathetic to their cause was President.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby The Modernist » 24 Feb 2018, 15:11

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
PresMuffley wrote:
caramba wrote:Hope I'm wrong, but despite other posters' optimism, I fear any protest will quickly fizzle out and be forgotten only to experience another short-term rebirth the next time there's a mass shooting in a school, mall, cinema or church.


I don't see this being forgotten anytime soon, though I do wonder if the upcoming summer break will help or harm the movement.


I don’t claim to know how long it will last. But something remarkable is happening in front of our eyes. It’s not even just remarkable in terms of politics. It goes deeper than that.

Over the last week or so we’ve all seen dozens of spokespeople emerge from this tragedy. Has there ever been an instance of shared grief that has so quickly morphed itself into a shared sense of group purpose?

I wouldn’t bet against the people of this community. They are clearly reinforcing each other to push through their grief and push on. I think they collectively view their new mission as something they owe the dead. I think this runs very deep.


Much earlier in the thread I said that there had to be a breaking point, that too many of these shootings had happened for there not to be. It's looking as if Florida is the breaking point.

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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Count Machuki » 24 Feb 2018, 15:53

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: Has there ever been an instance of shared grief that has so quickly morphed itself into a shared sense of group purpose?



(anything I could write here might come across as glib but I think this article might interest you, Davey)

Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 24 Feb 2018, 16:21

Count Machuki wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: Has there ever been an instance of shared grief that has so quickly morphed itself into a shared sense of group purpose?



(anything I could write here might come across as glib but I think this article might interest you, Davey)



That’s an extremely interesting perspective - and absolutely valid.

I do think the author ignores the fact that the multiple spokespeople from Parkland were all personally impacted by the massacre. So the disparity in how they are treated isn’t only about “actionable goals” or even just about identity. There is a moral authority that the Parkland spokespeople have because of their personal losses.

Which isn’t to say that nobody in BLM shouldn’t have had the same. Michael Brown’s family certainly weren’t given the same respect.

But most of the BLM movement was led by people making the argument that the victims were “just like” them - and perhaps that they had experienced police intimidation themselves. That’s not uncompelling (and people should have been more empathetic). But I don’t think that’s the same thing as what we are seeing out of Parkland this week.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Count Machuki » 24 Feb 2018, 16:30

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
I do think the author ignores the fact that the multiple spokespeople from Parkland were all personally impacted by the massacre.


True. Having one specific big impact event to rally around with personal experience to speak from makes the message easier to latch onto. Institutional racism is a little harder to wrap your head around.

Those Parkland videos wig me out something fierce.
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby PresMuffley » 25 Feb 2018, 00:44

Super-Jank wrote:So for a change we should be happy Trump’s in charge, because his ignorance is firing up these young people. It’s doubtful there’d be this much rage - and, as a result, this movement - if someone more (superficially) sympathetic to their cause was President.


This is essentially the argument proposed by some on the left regarding Trump's campaign and subsequent election. That his utter incompetence and blatant divisiveness would completely stifle the far right's agenda, making way for a progressive re-birth.

I'm still uncertain about this belief, as it seems too risky for my liking.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby ORORORO » 25 Feb 2018, 01:00

Having a common enemy is a powerful unifying force. Hearing Trump’s idiotic pronouncements was enough for these young people to say ‘fuck this shit’ and get together to fight for themselves.

He’s been a motivating force for good. Obama just kept them subdued with promises to change the law.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby PresMuffley » 25 Feb 2018, 01:12

I agree with all of that, the problem for me lies in the damage he will do while this re-birth, or re-awakening, this finding of our lost common ground and sense of community is taking place.

While the right's agenda hasn't played out so well for them to date, there have been some significant victories for their side. Right now, the most important thing to me is the mid-terms. People have to vote.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 25 Feb 2018, 02:25

Well - I think Trump is galvanizing the left. But I don’t think it’s going to lead to the kind of progressive rebirth that the Susan Sarandon’s of the world were angling for.

If you look at what’s been brewing on the left, it has thus far been about women’s equality and gun control - not the economic issues that most Berniecrats were pushing for. I think that a few other galvanizing issues are likely yet to come. But they likely won’t satisfy Greenwald, Taibbi, Sirota, etc.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby PresMuffley » 25 Feb 2018, 03:27

Count Machuki wrote:


An interesting take, though this I don't quite understand:

"M4BL made it possible for the Parkland resistance to exist as it does today. The Parkland students are interrupting politicians who refuse to speak to real issues. They are planning a march. They have multiple emerging faces of leadership. These are precisely the same tactics designed by the young people in M4BL when they were confronted with gun violence in their communities; the only difference of consequence is that the latter group is black."

I realize she isn't writing a complete history of protest movements in the U.S., but I think she does herself and her movement a disservice by not mentioning struggles from our not so recent past. M4BL didn't invent protest, right?

Also, it's not as if right-wing media has embraced these people in Parkland. This movement is just beginning, and you can certainly bet that if any violence does occur participants will be labled as terrorists.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby PresMuffley » 25 Feb 2018, 03:32

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:If you look at what’s been brewing on the left, it has thus far been about women’s equality and gun control - not the economic issues that most Berniecrats were pushing for. I think that a few other galvanizing issues are likely yet to come. But they likely won’t satisfy Greenwald, Taibbi, Sirota, etc.


It's the left's job to be perpetually unsatisfied, otherwise we all get screwed. Will you be completely satisfied with whatever incremental change hopefully occurs? Or will you push for even more change and an even better future for your family?
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 25 Feb 2018, 04:42

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:If you look at what’s been brewing on the left, it has thus far been about women’s equality and gun control - not the economic issues that most Berniecrats were pushing for. I think that a few other galvanizing issues are likely yet to come. But they likely won’t satisfy Greenwald, Taibbi, Sirota, etc.


It's the left's job to be perpetually unsatisfied, otherwise we all get screwed. Will you be completely satisfied with whatever incremental change hopefully occurs? Or will you push for even more change and an even better future for your family?


I don’t really get that response. Surely you aren’t arguing that the progressive wing of the party views itself as simply applying pressure from the left just to make a good thing even better?

The point I was responding to was that some on the left thought they’d get their revolution if they let Trump burn the status quo down. My response was that it likely won’t work. The left IS galvanizing - but not around the things that progressive political nihilists were angling for.

In the end, there may be some cultural progress on a few issues - but it won’t have been worth it in the aggregate. We are living through a disaster, and it will probably take a huge liberal wave just to get us halfway to where we were before idiots like Sarandon cheered us into oblivion.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby never/ever » 25 Feb 2018, 06:22

There has been progress made in response and backlash against guns- companies disassociating themselves with the NRA, the viral confrontations between politicians and victims/families of Parkland, but, sadly, I feel that the further away we get from the incident and funerals we get, the bite will become less fierce and people who were caught up in the debate will switch off and turn elsewhere.

How to keep the pressure on?
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby PresMuffley » 25 Feb 2018, 08:07

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: I don’t really get that response. Surely you aren’t arguing that the progressive wing of the party views itself as simply applying pressure from the left just to make a good thing even better?


First of all, I'm not arguing anything about the progressive wing of the party, whatever that is exactly. I don't particularly give a damn about what Susan Sarandon has to say. Is she the leader of this so-called progressive wing? I don't know. I am not affiliated with any party, and the only movement I associate myself with is The Movement to Try Really Hard Not to Be an Asshole. Admittedly, there is a lot of infighting.

My view of the left is a traditional one. I can go into further detail of you'd like, but I fear we might venture off-topic.

Anyway, I was asking if minor, incremental progress will satisfy you. This seems to be an answer:

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:We are living through a disaster, and it will probably take a huge liberal wave just to get us halfway to where we were before idiots like Sarandon cheered us into oblivion.


And the answer seems to be NO!
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby The Red Heifer » 25 Feb 2018, 08:10

never/ever wrote:There has been progress made in response and backlash against guns- companies disassociating themselves with the NRA, the viral confrontations between politicians and victims/families of Parkland, but, sadly, I feel that the further away we get from the incident and funerals we get, the bite will become less fierce and people who were caught up in the debate will switch off and turn elsewhere.

How to keep the pressure on?


well these events happen rather regularly in the US, and now the next time one hits there's already an elevated base of rage and devotion to change afoot, it isn't going to reset to zero anymore.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby never/ever » 25 Feb 2018, 08:39

I would hope so, Brendan.

If anything galvanises communities, it's murderers killing kids.

I had the same feeling after Sandy Hook. I couldn't believe after so many young children being victims of such an attack, parents would not rally to have gun control become a permanent issue. And yet, despite everyone's horror and firm initial talk, nothing changed.

The NRA-backed politicians know by now that they only have to let the rollercoaster ride of emotions do its full. turn before time wipes it all from our minds again, until the next tragedy starts. I don't see this time how anything is going to change with this president, this political system that is backed by the highest payer and that just is impenetrable for changes to be made in legislation and accountability.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby PresMuffley » 25 Feb 2018, 15:30

The NRA's attempt to blame law enforcement for the Parkland massacre isn't working out very well for them. A tactical error perhaps, or maybe just hubris, either way, alienating our supposed protectors is a pretty dumb move on their part.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 25 Feb 2018, 15:40

I agree with Heifer.

Haven’t you all noticed how quickly we cycled past the “thoughts and prayers” stage of our reaction ritual this time? Did you see how the collective appetite for a good-faith debate about whether the problem is assault weapons or mental illness has been cut into a sliver of what it was a year ago?

Sure. The energy around this particular incident will fade, as all things do. But our tolerance for the usual response gets less and less every time.

Use the #metoo phenomenon as an analogy and think of Parkland as the Harvey Weinstein flashpoint (making Sandy Hook something akin to the Anita Hill hearings). What happened after Weinstein? Less tolerance for Al Franken. Less tolerance for Roy Moore. Less tolerance for Aziz Ansari, etc.

What I see happening from here is that each incidence will have a bigger, more ferocious, longer-lasting reaction. Attention will still fade in between them. But for shorter and shorter intervals.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Harvey K-Tel » 25 Feb 2018, 16:24

Let the killing commence!
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 25 Feb 2018, 18:46

Holy shit! This kid David Hogg (the one they are desperately trying to brand a “crisis actor”) really is something.

He was just on This Week with George Stephanapolous following NRA spokes-ghoul Dana Loesch. She kept framing calls for regulation on assault weapons as “an attack on 5 million NRA members.” Then Hogg comes on and looks the camera directly and addresses those 5 million NRA members, asking them, “do you think Dana Loesch really represents you, or the gun industry?”

10 days ago he was just a high school kid. Now he’s one of the canniest political operators out there. I don’t but the “crisis actor” crap, but I won’t be surprised if this kid and a few of his classmates end up running this country in a few years.
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