The importance of family

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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take5_d_shorterer
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Re: The importance of family

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 04 Feb 2018, 16:23

I mean that the profit motive is central to the way health care is delivered in the US.

As I mentioned, there are limitations imposed internally by the Hippocratic oath and externally by the threat of malpractice (which actually goes back again the profit motive), but in general, making money has had an enormous impact on health care.

In this sense, health care in the US is no exception. Money is central to most other activities in this country. That's what makes us Americans.

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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: The importance of family

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 04 Feb 2018, 16:43

The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

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Jimbo
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Re: The importance of family

Postby Jimbo » 04 Feb 2018, 16:55

I just asked my Japanese wife what a typical Japanese family might do in your situation and she said she didn't know as there were few typical Japanese families anymore. One case of this atypicality close to us concerns my wife's uncle, aunt and their daughter Ayumi who became pregnant a few years back, ran away and hasn't contacted anyone since. Ayumi is a grownup now and can take care of herself, nonetheless, everyone is worried about her and wonders how she is faring. My wife and I agree that we would take her in or help her however we could but she seems to have done a good job of going underground.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby sloopjohnc » 04 Feb 2018, 17:10

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I’ve spilled way too much of my family business on this thread, but I’ll spill a bit more: Around the time that my first daughter was born and we were reeling from her diagnosis - my family found out that my elderly grandmother had a large amount of money saved.

Due to some very complicated family history, she left none to her two sons and instead made myself, my siblings and a cousin the sole beneficiaries of her will. This enraged both my father and uncle (both of whom were financially comfortable), and so - they exploited her worsening Alzheimer’s disease by getting her to sign a new will making them the beneficiaries.

Once that was done, they had disagreements and mistrust about how her money should be used in her final years, so they ended up at wat with each other. In spite, they sued each other multiple times and allowed lawyers fees to eat up most of the money that the other one couldn’t drain out of the trust otherwise. By the time she passed, what should have been about half a million dollars to each grandchild was gone.

Given what my family was going through, this felt like a kick in the stomach. Less because of the money (it was never real to me) - but all of my illusions around families taking care of each other shattered right there. Even in the extremity of our situation...our family just couldn’t step up.


That's fucked up. It never ceases to amaze me how good people can be and how they'll cut off their noses to spite their faces. Man, are we complicated or what?

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Re: The importance of family

Postby Flower » 04 Feb 2018, 20:00

When you board a plane and they give out the 'instructions' .. the most important one is to grab the life mask for yourself first or you'll not be able to help others. You need to do what's best for you and will keep you strong or you won't be able to help others or in this case your brother.

I hope that your brother finds the help that he needs.
If love could've saved you, you would've lived forever.

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Re: The importance of family

Postby Flower » 04 Feb 2018, 20:09

The sad thing about estates is that it will often cost you more to get what is your property then to just replace it. I've "lost" things that were mine and that I left in my mother's care because of a greedy sibling stealing 'things' that I stored at my mother's house. My sister won't even send me my baby pictures.

It sucks that family can steal from you knowing how costly it will be to retrieve you own property or property that someone wanted you to own.

My attorney told me that it would eat up the estate to retrieve my property and even then, I more than likely won't things back if they were sold, lost or missing.
If love could've saved you, you would've lived forever.

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Re: The importance of family

Postby Jimbo » 05 Feb 2018, 03:05

Flower wrote:When you board a plane and they give out the 'instructions' .. the most important one is to grab the life mask for yourself first or you'll not be able to help others.


Image

I get no respect. No respect I tell ya. I'm in a plane. The plane hits some turbulence. The masks drop. Everyone gets an oxygen mask. Not me. I get an exhaust pipe.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby sloopjohnc » 05 Feb 2018, 16:46

Flower wrote:The sad thing about estates is that it will often cost you more to get what is your property then to just replace it. I've "lost" things that were mine and that I left in my mother's care because of a greedy sibling stealing 'things' that I stored at my mother's house. My sister won't even send me my baby pictures.


That sucks. I have a friend whose family is still dealing with ephemera from their mom's death three years ago. One of the daughters in law swooped in and grabbed most of the jewelry before anyone could discuss it.

I had some stuff of my mom's and dad's, some photos and paintings, but neither my brother and I are the kind to argue over mementos and stuff. My cousins wanted some things, but my brother and I were more pissed off when they said they wanted some things but wouldn't come and pick 'em up.

90% of my apartment is furnished with my dad and mom's stuff - their bed, a dresser, foot locker, decorative tables and chairs, a dining room set, a few lamps. My brother didn't want those anyway because he has a house and had no room.

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Count Machuki
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Re: The importance of family

Postby Count Machuki » 05 Feb 2018, 16:56

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:... I wonder how folks from Latin America or Asia might view this.



Being in a "multi-cultural" household it's definitely a tension. Family is NUMBER ONE ABOVE ALL ELSE for my wife, where I honestly struggle a lot of times not to see family as more trouble than it's worth. I feel guilty about that.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby Geezee » 05 Feb 2018, 17:21

For what it's worth, I think you've handled it pretty perfectly, and I would have sought to handle it in a pretty similar way. My family has pretty much always been at arms-length, which, in Sweden is a pretty typical conservative thing (it took me a while to figure out that there can be conservatives who are the exact opposite). The idea that I grew up with was that one should never interfere with other people's lives, whether it is family or anyone else - this is a pretty dogmatic conservative ("Moderat") view. The opposite of that is socialism/communism, where you force ideology down the throat, and family is a crucial unit for that. It's of course not that simple, but that's the general context that I grew up in. And the fact that I am pretty strongly on the left of the political spectrum is a source of pride for my (strongly conservative) parents - to them it is the ultimate proof that they raised me successfully, that they allowed me to think what I wanted, and freely. It's a digression, but I say this because it does have an impact on my family relationships. I realise that I searched from a very early age for something quite different - my wife comes a family where family very much comes first, and I was attracted by that from Day1. I think I've been resigned to the fact that I'll never have that kind of relationship with my own family, and ultimately that I don't even give that a proper chance. There have been plenty of opportunities to create a stronger bond with my sister, but I've never felt comfortable pushing for it. And i do worry about her in a similar way to Toby, although financially she'll be more secure. But either way, I think I would set similar "structures/boundaries" in place if my sister had a similar situation to Daveys brother, and ultimately I would seek to hold firm if time was up. It's hard.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby sloopjohnc » 05 Feb 2018, 17:23

Count Machuki wrote:Family is NUMBER ONE ABOVE ALL ELSE for my wife, where I honestly struggle a lot of times not to see family as more trouble than it's worth. I feel guilty about that.


I've told this story before, but when I friend told me he was going to visit his birth mother (he's adopted too), he asked me what I thought.

I said, "One family is enough and sometimes it's too much."

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Re: The importance of family

Postby bobzilla77 » 05 Feb 2018, 21:54

You are in a really tough spot & I feel for you.

I tried really hard to help out someone who was not related to me, but who had been my roommate and bandmate for many years. This guy had helped me a lot when I arrived in LA with nothing - took me to band practices and gigs, helped me figure out how to navigate LA. When he fell on hard times years later, I felt compelled to do what I could.

He begged me to stay on my couch for a few nights as an alternative to the homeless shelter.

He was just unable or unwilling to do anything to help himself. I'd spend hours helping him figure out where the county service offices were, and how to get there on the bus, and give him the busfare and work out a whole schedule, and he just wouldn't go. I took a day off work to get him to one of these offices, and they made a bunch of followup appointments for him - and he didn't go.

As "a few days" staying with us turned into eight weeks, he made utterly no effort to find anything else to do. It became clear that his only plan was to live in my house and let me try to solve all his problems.

I was also trying to recover property from the place he'd been evicted from previously, and he was still mad at how it went down and didn't think I did a good job helping him.

The stress was causing marriage problems and work problems, and at one point I feared I would be fired and lose the house, that my wife would leave me because I was prioritizing this other person over her. And did I mention that the guy was a drunk? Spent every cent he had on booze and couldn't even kick down $10 for groceries when we were feeding him.

At the start of the eighth week, I kicked him out of my house and drove him to the homeless shelter. The next day he self reported as suicidal and was put into a three day hold at a mental hospital.

It was one of the hardest things I ever did and I was depressed for a good 3 months after that.

Then the fog started to clear. Our financial situation got less dire. I started having full night's sleep again. I accepted that I can't solve everybody's problems, despite having good will toward them. and that my poor helpless friend was kind of an asshole for putting me in that situation.

In case you were wondering, my friend is still alive and well, even though I haven't done anything much for him in six years. I was so convinced I had to "save" him, but it turns out he could have done just fine without me. I could have ruined my own life on a futile effort to help him, and he didn't really need the help.

I thought about whether I would have done something like that if he had been in my family. Would I have felt a responsibility to keep doing that indefinitely? And I decided, no. I think we are expected to provide for our kids until they turn 18, but we are not necessarily expected to care for our parents, nor siblings. We can choose to do it, but a lot of people wouldn't.

When my dad was in extremely poor health at the end of his life - basically, drinking himself to death deliberately - I had to move him into an assisted living facility. He didn't want to go. That was also incredibly hard. But there was going to be no life for either of us if I had moved him into my home. I would have had to quit my job and we would have both ended up on the street. Nevertheless there may be people out there, who would tell me I should have done it and I should be guilty for choosing myself over him, because family is everything.

I don't buy that. I think we do what we can to help others. But I also have to be compasionate to myself, and to my wife. I can't take on the weight of solving every problem, it will crush me. I put us first.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 06 Feb 2018, 02:09

sloopjohnc wrote:
I've told this story before, but when I friend told me he was going to visit his birth mother (he's adopted too), he asked me what I thought.

I said, "One family is enough and sometimes it's too much."


This does sound like a movie script, no?

Isaac Davis:
I got a kid, he's being raised by two women at the moment.

Mary Wilke:
Oh, y'know, I mean I think that works. Uh, they made some studies, I read in one of the psychoanalytic quarterlies. You don't need a male, I mean. Two mothers are absolutely fine.

Isaac Davis:
Really? Because I always feel very few people survive one mother.

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Re: The importance of family

Postby Dr Markus » 06 Feb 2018, 12:22

"Tough Love" so to speak is the hardest thing to do when really needed. Me and my friend were talking about this last night. His parents basically stopped giving him money when he was about 15. The minute he finished uni and was living at home, they insisted he pay rent. He resented it at the time but today he's better off. He's far better with money than lot of us in general. I started working at 13 getting good enough money for a 13 year old, and my parents would still slip me some money. In a weird kina way I wish they were tougher on me and said, "you spent all your money? you'll have to wait for your next pay day".
This of course is way less serious than helping someone get back on their feet.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby Toby » 06 Feb 2018, 12:44

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
So in this spirit- I ask you...is it right for society to have no answers for people whose families fail them? Are all families adequately able or willing to be each other’s safety net?


Well, that's the issue isn't it. The lines between family and state aren't always hard and neat; there's always a lot of fuzziness somewhere along the line. And whatever provision the state provides, there will be those who benefit from it, those who arguably take advantage of whatever system is created to exploit it, just as much as there will be those who decry intervention, those who don't qualify for whatever reason, and those who just feel that it's wrong.

Personally I feel that we are past the notion of there being no safety net in terms of the state picking up the pieces. I'm looking at this from a European perspective, where welfare states have been a part of society for over 100 years. Conservatives get utopian when they suggest there be no welfare state and that we all fall back to some antediluvian societal situation where everyone looks after one another and the state need not intervene. I just don't think that's possible - there has to be some sort of safety net, but it cannot be allowed to create generational dependency where the state assumes the role of a parent or family member. To me, that is a vital intrusion into the mindspace of individuals, where notions of individual responsibility and civic duty are eroded, often irreparably.

It could be argued that our secular way of life has eroded, almost to the point of invisibility, the third party in this discussion. Why are so many immigrant groups to the UK successful in terms of keeping a strong way of life? Because they are observant of their religion, either ritually (Muslim for example) or culturally (classic urban Judaism). Observing old practices, keeping hold of a tradition of some sort, I think, make them successful. Of course, they often clash with contemporary western values and can be very problematic on an individual basis, but as families, whether it be taking care of grandparents, or sorting out education and finance, they work in some ways that the classic western nuclear family has seemingly given up. That is a broad generalisation - and there will always be notable exceptions.

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Re: The importance of family

Postby mission » 06 Feb 2018, 13:07

When a couple marries, they make, bit by bit, a choice about which will be the family they belong to or that they will follow. His family or yours. Her family or yours. You know, from things like whose house you go to at Christmas for the important meal (indeed, whose family traditions determine what is the important meal) and which photos get put where, to larger decisions - choice of school, house - to the terrible later decisions (who gets to look after the aged, bury the dead, clean up the mess, take in the lame ducks); one of you will prevail.

At some real point, though, when children are involved, you have to hive off; you make your own distinct family.

When the old family encroaches, like your bro is doing, they upset the new dynamic.

But, my droog, you have made your own tribe. He's not part of it. Fundamentally, you are choosing your wife over your brother and that is the way it should be.

They say home is where they can't turn you away. Your home is not his. Importantly for you, I believe it's a fault-free situation. You didn't make it be so. It just is.

You would be failing your real family if you clung to the old one that fate threw you into. Giddy up. Don't lament what is not.

In terms of relying on the state to fill in the gaps left by the erosion of old extended-family models, Toby's point about the historical dimension to our reality is pretty pressing. It wasn't a generation ago that we all lived in the same town and looked after each other's kids. It was in a Golden Age fantasy ago.

If you are going to measure yourself against some external standards, it is a good idea for them to not be fictional.
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Re: The importance of family

Postby sloopjohnc » 06 Feb 2018, 13:59

take5_d_shorterer wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
I've told this story before, but when I friend told me he was going to visit his birth mother (he's adopted too), he asked me what I thought.

I said, "One family is enough and sometimes it's too much."


This does sound like a movie script, no?

Isaac Davis:
I got a kid, he's being raised by two women at the moment.

Mary Wilke:
Oh, y'know, I mean I think that works. Uh, they made some studies, I read in one of the psychoanalytic quarterlies. You don't need a male, I mean. Two mothers are absolutely fine.

Isaac Davis:
Really? Because I always feel very few people survive one mother.


Maybe I had unconsciously heard it somewhere else, but it was around 1990 or so when I said it, and I don't remember hearing it before. I don't even remember saying it until my friend reminded me after his adopted mom really resented him starting a relationship with his birth mother.

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Re: The importance of family

Postby sloopjohnc » 06 Feb 2018, 14:05

The Great Defector wrote:"Tough Love" so to speak is the hardest thing to do when really needed.


As a parent, it's one of the toughest things to do. It starts with letting your kids cry themselves to sleep in the crib and carries on to adulthood.

You hate to see your kids suffer, but you have to take into account self-resourcefulness vs. immediate gratification.

I used to occasionally call my parents from a pay phone after basketball practice on rainy nights to get a ride home. Before I'd finish my request, they'd hang up, which was understood to take the bus or walk home.

My daughter is 22 and doesn't have her driver's license. For awhile I picked her up from jr. college, which I hated, because it's across town and it was during rush hour. And she was an expert on making me feel guilty. One day, I bought her a bus pass and told she had to get a job to pay for Uber because I wasn't going to pick her up anymore and neither was her mom. Once in awhile, she'll call me when she misses the bus and it's the hardest thing not to text her back and get in my car and go get her. Especially when it's getting dark.