Well proportioned people and kids

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Fonz » 13 Dec 2017, 06:59

Diamond Dog wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Fonz wrote:

If everyone could lose weight 'easily' we wouldn't have a problem. Like smoking, drinking etc a tendency to overeat is a burden to contend with. I don't think anyone would argue with that.


You didn't read what I said. I didn't say anything about overeating.


Aha - finally someone has made the connection. Well done G.


If an individual overeats they will put on weight. Where the threshold sits for that individual will vary- the suggested calorie intake figures are guidelines, not rules.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Diamond Dog » 13 Dec 2017, 08:11

Yet the opening post makes no such qualification, nor allows for individual circumstances.

The opening post you, and others, have wholeheartedly endorsed.

I gave a list of other criteria where the NHS could, equally justifiably, refuse treatment - no one besides Toby seems to want to answer that.

Which is interesting, don't you think?
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Fonz » 13 Dec 2017, 08:36

Diamond Dog wrote:Yet the opening post makes no such qualification, nor allows for individual circumstances.

The opening post you, and others, have wholeheartedly endorsed.

I gave a list of other criteria where the NHS could, equally justifiably, refuse treatment - no one besides Toby seems to want to answer that.

Which is interesting, don't you think?


I don’t really see the need to allow for individual circumstances wgt weight gain and calorie intake. By the time you reach adulthood you have a pretty good idea of how much food you need to sustain you without putting on weight. Base your intake on that.
The idea that some people only have to look at food to put weight on is bullshit.

As far as the other things mentioned, let’s start a new thread and argue about them there.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Diamond Dog » 13 Dec 2017, 08:54

Fonz wrote:I don’t really see the need to allow for individual circumstances wgt weight gain and calorie intake. By the time you reach adulthood you have a pretty good idea of how much food you need to sustain you without putting on weight. Base your intake on that.
The idea that some people only have to look at food to put weight on is bullshit.


Well I'm not a dietician or doctor, so I'll just have to bow to your professional knowledge in this matter.

You are a dietician and/or doctor, I assume?
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Fonz » 13 Dec 2017, 09:14

Diamond Dog wrote:
Fonz wrote:I don’t really see the need to allow for individual circumstances wgt weight gain and calorie intake. By the time you reach adulthood you have a pretty good idea of how much food you need to sustain you without putting on weight. Base your intake on that.
The idea that some people only have to look at food to put weight on is bullshit.


Well I'm not a dietician or doctor, so I'll just have to bow to your professional knowledge in this matter.

You are a dietician and/or doctor, I assume?


Yes
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Toby » 13 Dec 2017, 09:15

Hmmm I think it's easy to look at this sort of thing rationally, but that doesn't answer the question.

There is no doubt that the state of our food culture and the habits around it is problematic. It is very easy to say "hey, just lose weight" - but as Minnie has articulated very well above, some people just like food that is objectively "bad" for them in terms of health. And given the parlous socio-economic state of many parts of the country, tasty and easily made food, whether it be convenient fried chicken or a bottle of pop to keep your kids quiet, plays a significant factor.

At the same time the opening post contains a statement by the chief executive of the NHS, who is saying that in order to treat this problem, taxes would have to be raised significantly.

If we were taxed separately for health services (i.e in wage slips the NHS contribution was visible), do you think that might change our perception of how much the NHS costs to run? I mean, if people could opt out of NHS services and not pay the tax, would that change the perception of our attitude towards our health and the service?

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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Bumblecorn Cats Nightmare » 13 Dec 2017, 09:25

I like the idea of a progressive NHS tax, with the amount made clear on your wage slip.

It’s the kind of thing I imagine would work well in Germany but people here might take some persuading. But at least most people in the UK realise the NHS is underfunded. That might be a good enough starting point.
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re: Bargearsed Wobblebelly Lardybums

Postby mission » 13 Dec 2017, 09:37

I think it is indisputable that fat is easy to put on and hard to lose. DD and Dr Fonz can agree there and the discussion can move on.

If a nationalised health service is struggling to cope with the ramifications of any epidemic - be it obesity, opioid addictions, or whatever - then who makes the decisions about what gets spent on what?

The medicalisation of morality, where what used to be sins or faults of character have become diseases or conditions, kind of rests on our faith in the ability of science/medicine to cure those diseases or conditions.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Deebank » 13 Dec 2017, 10:13

It's hardly surprising.
We're genetically programmed to opt for the 'bad' choices because they made good sense for most of human evolution - where there were massive benefits to getting the most calories with the least effort.
It's only really been the last few hundred years (a tiny part of the human story) where this hasn't been the case.

The fact is if we want universal healthcare, free at the point of delivery we're going to have to pay for it (contradiction in terms :lol: ), prefereably through taxation.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Fonz » 13 Dec 2017, 11:17

Diamond Dog wrote:Yet the opening post makes no such qualification, nor allows for individual circumstances.

The opening post you, and others, have wholeheartedly endorsed.

I gave a list of other criteria where the NHS could, equally justifiably, refuse treatment - no one besides Toby seems to want to answer that.

Which is interesting, don't you think?


I don’t see what is contentious about the opening post. The Guardian article, or a general reluctance to want to have a larger person invading one’s personal space?
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Dr Markus » 13 Dec 2017, 14:13

Fonz wrote:
I don’t see what is contentious about the opening post. The Guardian article, or a general reluctance to want to have a larger person invading one’s personal space?



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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Bumblecorn Cats Nightmare » 13 Dec 2017, 14:41

:lol:
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby The Modernist » 13 Dec 2017, 19:23

Fonz wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Fonz wrote:I don’t really see the need to allow for individual circumstances wgt weight gain and calorie intake. By the time you reach adulthood you have a pretty good idea of how much food you need to sustain you without putting on weight. Base your intake on that.
The idea that some people only have to look at food to put weight on is bullshit.


Well I'm not a dietician or doctor, so I'll just have to bow to your professional knowledge in this matter.

You are a dietician and/or doctor, I assume?


Yes


Well then I'd expect you show greater understanding than you have been.
My mum has a thyroid condition which means she gains weight easily, it is very difficult for her to lose any weight. I worked with someone who was a big woman. I remember being surprised, because of my own ignorant prejudice, when I found out she spent half of her life in the gym. Then I noticed, when I saw what she ate for lunch, it was all very low calorie/low carb stuff (and the kind of stuff that would bore me rigid if I had to follow such a diet). She was having to work bloody hard to just keep to the weight she was - which was still big enough for you to no doubt resent her sitting next to you on a bus.
There are all sorts of factors here -glands, thyroids, genetics. I mean I've seen some bloody huge Nigerians, but I'm sure it's not because they're all stuffing their faces with cake, many just seem to have a propensity towards it.
None of which is to deny that modern food, and junk food in particular, has lead to increasing problems with obesity in our society. I'm just uncomfortable with the "them and us" tone that some have taken. Viewing it in such a binary way just seems to me fundamentally unfair.

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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Rayge » 13 Dec 2017, 20:43

The Modernist wrote:There are all sorts of factors here -glands, thyroids, genetics. I mean I've seen some bloody huge Nigerians, but I'm sure it's not because they're all stuffing their faces with cake, many just seem to have a propensity towards it.
None of which is to deny that modern food, and junk food in particular, has lead to increasing problems with obesity in our society. I'm just uncomfortable with the "them and us" tone that some have taken. Viewing it in such a binary way just seems to me fundamentally unfair.


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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Thang-y » 13 Dec 2017, 21:49

Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:There are all sorts of factors here -glands, thyroids, genetics. I mean I've seen some bloody huge Nigerians, but I'm sure it's not because they're all stuffing their faces with cake, many just seem to have a propensity towards it.
None of which is to deny that modern food, and junk food in particular, has lead to increasing problems with obesity in our society. I'm just uncomfortable with the "them and us" tone that some have taken. Viewing it in such a binary way just seems to me fundamentally unfair.


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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Fonz » 13 Dec 2017, 22:19

Please don’t mistake my objectivity for lack of compassion.
The fact remains that if your calorific intake exceeds your calorific expenditure you will put on weight, and vice-versa.
Of course some people have medical conditions that affect their metabolism. That unfortunately means that they have to be particularly careful about what they eat and whether they choose, or are able, to be active.

Everyone, whether they have a metabolic problem or not, has to take responsibility for their own diet. It is pretty much the only thing that we can have full autonomy over.

Going back to the Fast Food thread, I believe I suggested education was the policy most likely to succeed.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Hipster Dawg » 13 Dec 2017, 22:28

Thang-y wrote:Except Keanu. He can sit on my lap.

Where am I supposed to sit then? I called dibs.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby never/ever » 15 Dec 2017, 22:56

Fonz wrote:Please don’t mistake my objectivity for lack of compassion.
The fact remains that if your calorific intake exceeds your calorific expenditure you will put on weight, and vice-versa.
Of course some people have medical conditions that affect their metabolism. That unfortunately means that they have to be particularly careful about what they eat and whether they choose, or are able, to be active.

Everyone, whether they have a metabolic problem or not, has to take responsibility for their own diet. It is pretty much the only thing that we can have full autonomy over.

Going back to the Fast Food thread, I believe I suggested education was the policy most likely to succeed.


There is also the cost-factor. Junk food has always been relatively cheap and easily accessible. A lot of the smaller incomes feel that fresh food and veg is expensive. Shouldn't it be the other way around then? In that case, should there be more of an investment to supply cheaper and healthier alternatives to those that can't afford it?

If fresh food and veg was the cheapest food stuff on the market it would take this excuse right off the table.
Fund it with taxing junk/sugary food if you want.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Copehead » 16 Dec 2017, 03:20

Fonz wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Yet the opening post makes no such qualification, nor allows for individual circumstances.

The opening post you, and others, have wholeheartedly endorsed.

I gave a list of other criteria where the NHS could, equally justifiably, refuse treatment - no one besides Toby seems to want to answer that.

Which is interesting, don't you think?


I don’t really see the need to allow for individual circumstances wgt weight gain and calorie intake. By the time you reach adulthood you have a pretty good idea of how much food you need to sustain you without putting on weight. Base your intake on that.
.


Well that is flat out wrong.

I have 2 degrees in sciences but in order to lose weight I have literally had to go back to basic weighing and counting up every calorie I ingest because I had absolutely no idea what amount of food I needed to ingest to lose weight.

I knew it was 1900 calories a day but I had zero idea of what that meant on the plate.

Because I am analytical and, modesty aside, intelligent I have been able to do that; but I can imagine for many people eating the correct amount of food is a struggle because they have no idea what the correct amount of food is and are not equipped to work it out for themselves easily.

I would say that losing weight, much like stopping smoking or drinking, requires a change in attitude more than anything else, the person has to actively desire to lose weight, stop smoking or stop drinking, because being pressurized into it is never going to lead to lasting results.

I made a active decision to become a non-smoker many years ago and I made a active decision to lose weight likewise with, so far, modest but measurable effect

The one thing that fat people do not need is condescension, disgust or moralizing of thin people.
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Re: Well proportioned people and kids

Postby Copehead » 16 Dec 2017, 03:30

Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:There are all sorts of factors here -glands, thyroids, genetics. I mean I've seen some bloody huge Nigerians, but I'm sure it's not because they're all stuffing their faces with cake, many just seem to have a propensity towards it.
None of which is to deny that modern food, and junk food in particular, has lead to increasing problems with obesity in our society. I'm just uncomfortable with the "them and us" tone that some have taken. Viewing it in such a binary way just seems to me fundamentally unfair.


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There is an element of genetic lottery in all this, I have hypothyroidism it isn't why I am over weight but it didn't help, I put on about 10kg before diagnosis and stabilisation and it makes it harder to get that off again. There is also an element of psychology; some people's lives are pretty shitty and comfort eating is just about the cheapest way of assuaging one's unhappiness with life.

Also the support given to people to lose weight is non-existent unless it becomes an immediate danger to ones health. People are supposed to sort it out for themselves and it isn't actually an easy thing to do, especially not if you have a thin person sitting next to you on the plane radiating disgust at your very existence.

It isn't massively difficult to maintain weight, but shifting 10-20kg is bloody difficult, but thin people just assume it is a matter of eating salad for a few weeks because they have never had to do it.
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