Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Keep the monarchy?

Yes - they are personally important to me and must stay.
5
14%
No - they are irrelevant to me and serve no purpose. Give it a year and they won't be missed.
23
64%
Couldn't give a stuff either way.
8
22%
 
Total votes: 36

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Thang-y
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Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Thang-y » 27 Nov 2017, 20:58

UKers to vote only please (more accurately, the mugs who pay for the monarchy), comments open to all.

Not talking about any individuals - they may be very nice people (who we wouldn't be talking about if they weren't part of the royal family) - but the concept/institution of monarchy.

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Toby
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Toby » 27 Nov 2017, 21:12

This is too binary.

The notion of a Monarch in today's democratic world is absurd. But in countries that have complex histories where the dialogue between institutions plays a tremendously important part in the political process, such as the constitutional monarchy of the UK, the question becomes more complex.

People have tried over the last few hundred years or so to remove their monarchs, but the evidence across the world for a peaceful transition is pretty dismal. It usually ends in catastrophic levels of blood.

Britain offers an example of a monarchy that provides a powerful symbol of living history whilst being politically benign. We had our civil war on this subject nearly 400 years ago and sorted the main issues out. The Monarchy as an institution I suspect will continue to grow smaller and smaller, perhaps even more quickly once the Queen dies.

Provide a solution on how to end the institution of the monarchy and successfully resolve the constitutional and political processes that it would involve for all parties concerned and we can proceed.

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German Dave
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby German Dave » 27 Nov 2017, 21:28

Toby wrote:
People have tried over the last few hundred years or so to remove their monarchs, but the evidence across the world for a peaceful transition is pretty dismal. It usually ends in catastrophic levels of blood.


What, as opposed to imperialism and capitalism?

Britain offers an example of a monarchy that provides a powerful symbol of living history whilst being politically benign. We had our civil war on this subject nearly 400 years ago and sorted the main issues out.


Thank you, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Thang-y » 27 Nov 2017, 21:31

'Yes or No' is binary. 'Just a bit' counts as 'yes'.
On the 'yes' option I said "personally important to me" because I want personal votes, no votes to include "well it matters for others".
Perhaps I should have included "I don't want them but I'm just a contrarian". But I didn't.

The monarch in this country has no active constitutional role. The very term is redundant.

How people in the past and elsewhere rid themselves of monarchy is irrelevant.

Britain offers an example of a monarchy that provides a powerful symbol of living history

You say so. Others may say so. I disagree. I also think we don't need it even if they were.

whilst being politically benign.

Benign? Why not radiantly graceful .. majestic even.
Anyway, they're politically irrelevant.

We had our civil war on this subject nearly 400 years ago

Ah yes. I was a roundhead back then.

and sorted the main issues out

That's a relief.

Provide a solution on how to end the institution of the monarchy and successfully resolve the constitutional and political processes that it would involve for all parties concerned and we can proceed.

Why? I'm only asking for people's opinion on the board as to whether the monarchy is wanted for itself.

That said, it could be done.

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Toby
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Toby » 27 Nov 2017, 21:42

German Dave wrote:
Toby wrote:
People have tried over the last few hundred years or so to remove their monarchs, but the evidence across the world for a peaceful transition is pretty dismal. It usually ends in catastrophic levels of blood.


What, as opposed to imperialism and capitalism?



It is easy to talk about the removal of an existing political system when we have lived, for the most part, peaceful lives. But the evidence for the removal of monarchies, particularly in Europe, isn't particularly great. France and Spain in particular are moot points.

Republics such as France engaged in murderous colonial practices, America continued the institution of slavery as a Republic for nearly a century after it was created and Communism killed millions of people in the 20th century whilst keeping slavery going through the Gulag system, so I'm not really sure what your point is about imperialism and capitalism.

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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby German Dave » 27 Nov 2017, 22:15

Toby wrote:
German Dave wrote:
Toby wrote:
People have tried over the last few hundred years or so to remove their monarchs, but the evidence across the world for a peaceful transition is pretty dismal. It usually ends in catastrophic levels of blood.


What, as opposed to imperialism and capitalism?



It is easy to talk about the removal of an existing political system when we have lived, for the most part, peaceful lives. But the evidence for the removal of monarchies, particularly in Europe, isn't particularly great. France and Spain in particular are moot points.


The fact that we have lived "peaceful lives" (before we even consider the non-peaceful existence and abject suffering that many have had to endure around the world in order to deliver that "peace" to us) has little to do with this nation persisting with a king or queen on its stamps.

Republics such as France engaged in murderous colonial practices, America continued the institution of slavery as a Republic for nearly a century after it was created and Communism killed millions of people in the 20th century whilst keeping slavery going through the Gulag system, so I'm not really sure what your point is about imperialism and capitalism.


I'd have thought it was obvious that my point was that your precious status quo was no better than the hypothetical scenario you were decrying.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby sloopjohnc » 28 Nov 2017, 00:45

I think you guys should make me king.

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No more chips and scraps. Only corn dogs.

No Randy Newman. Only Kraftwerk.

You'll thank me later.

You'll see. . .
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Jimbo » 28 Nov 2017, 05:31

Forgive my ignorance on the details I just learned that the House of Lords is no longer a body of life-long appointed landed barons and dukes but is a now body of supposedly neutral, apolitical advisors. Or something. That seems like a big step toward if not eliminating royal power then diminishing it.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Darkness_Fish » 28 Nov 2017, 07:55

Jimbo wrote:Forgive my ignorance on the details I just learned that the House of Lords is no longer a body of life-long appointed landed barons and dukes but is a now body of supposedly neutral, apolitical advisors. Or something. That seems like a big step toward if not eliminating royal power then diminishing it.

Nah, it's still largely party political, plus all the aristocracy, bishops, and early retirement bloated former MPs who still require access to the private bars of Westminster, and thus get peerages for their work in creating the need for food banks.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Darkness_Fish » 28 Nov 2017, 07:57

But on the plus side, I do think that Prince Harry had performed a genuine personal sacrifice by marrying Ms Merkel for the good of European unity.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby PENK » 28 Nov 2017, 08:08

He just wants German citizenship so he can skip the queues at airports.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Diamond Dog » 28 Nov 2017, 08:14

PENK wrote:He just wants German citizenship so he can skip the queues at airports.


I'd have thought him retaining German citizenship would be less than problematic.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby PENK » 28 Nov 2017, 08:14

:)
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Geezee » 28 Nov 2017, 09:32

Fuck no.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Geezee » 28 Nov 2017, 09:32

Diamond Dog wrote:
PENK wrote:He just wants German citizenship so he can skip the queues at airports.


I'd have thought him retaining German citizenship would be less than problematic.


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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Goat Boy » 28 Nov 2017, 10:15

I think people believe that the Queen has put a real shift in, a lifetimes public service, that sorta thing. I get that. I think she does take the role very seriously and I respect her for that.

I don’t think Charles is particularly liked but then William and Harry are. I think there’s a not insignificant amount of public good will towards them, in part because of their mother and her death of course but they’ve also conducted themselves pretty well. I don’t consider that much of an achievement mind but it’s all about appearances.

I’ve always been a republican and still believe that as a matter of principle we should ditch them. Over the years my ire has died down a bit as I mellow. It also doesn’t seem as important to me as it once did simply because there’s so much other shit going down at the moment. That doesn’t mean I don’t tell ‘em to “fuck off” when I see ‘em on the telly mind. I stumbled upon some show on the Beeb on the anniversary of Elizabeth and Philips wedding and was nauseated by the arse licking. That still angers me.

I would love to think that one day they would simply fade away but it could take decades. One thing Brexit has shown is that in an increasingly global world the pull of old fashioned national identity is still there and it’s still powerful. The Royal Family, like it or not, are part of British national identity but a diminished one I think. Once certain generations die off their relevance will become even less but they will still maintain some allure as part of the celebrity world.

I can see a slow death I guess. One where they just fizzle out. But I can also see peoples apathy and tolerance keeping them there too. Part of me would still like to see Charlies head on a stick. Another part of me is resigned to their continued and possibly permanent existence.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby The Modernist » 28 Nov 2017, 10:22

We've had the debate on here before and I've not been persuaded by any of the arguments for their retention. The principle of what they represent is just wrong in a modern democracy in my view. At the same time I don't expect them to go in my lifetime, quite the opposite, I think Harry and William and their various spouses and children will bring in a new wave of popularity.

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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby never/ever » 28 Nov 2017, 10:24

Only UK?
Liz rules Australia/New Zealand too.
Plus I share a monarch with Frank too- so I perhaps pay double.....
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Diamond Dog » 28 Nov 2017, 10:35

The people that say "They're doing a great job" etc - how is that quantifiable?

I've never understood how, in the 21st century, we have this anachronism from the dark ages. It's all a complete and utter nonsense and I am never less than completely baffled that otherwise sane/sensible people go all weak at the knees and start drooling feverishly when the Monarchy is mentioned - it's incomprehensible.

Get rid of them. Tomorrow. By the weekend, no one will remember what they did or why they were still in place. More importantly, no one will miss their 'function' one single iota. Not once.
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Re: Monarchy the institution. Yes or no?

Postby Thang-y » 28 Nov 2017, 10:36

never/ever wrote:Only UK?
Liz rules Australia/New Zealand too.
Plus I share a monarch with Frank too- so I perhaps pay double.....


Interesting point - I'd be interested in knowing how much non-UK tax payers cough up for the so-called aristocracy.

I'm also wondering who the second person who voted 'yes' was. Admins ..??