Punctuation Question

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Snarfyguy
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Punctuation Question

Postby Snarfyguy » 21 Nov 2017, 20:49

Did the Indiana Court of Appeals unreasonably apply, or reach a decision contrary to Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984) and its progeny?

Should there be a comma between "to" and "Strickland v. Washington" in order to effectively set off the dependent clause "or reach a decision contrary to?"

Without the comma I just sort of keep reading through the case cite without noticing that the question is posing two alternatives and then I have to go back and sort of mentally fill in the comma, but with the comma my interior voice sounds weirdly artificial and fussy.

Thanks!

EDIT: Sorry, wrong forum!
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Darryl Strawberry
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Darryl Strawberry » 21 Nov 2017, 21:57

Yes there should. You don't need to voice it.
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby German Dave » 21 Nov 2017, 22:01

Lifes Rich Pageant, eh?
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby !!VAPRANT!! » 21 Nov 2017, 22:04

No comma
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Hugh » 21 Nov 2017, 22:06

Agreed, no comma.

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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Nov 2017, 22:07

Let There Be Rock
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Snarfyguy » 21 Nov 2017, 22:21

Darryl Strawberry wrote:Yes


*fun and open field* wrote:No


Hugh wrote:no


I say yes. Tiebreaker, anyone? I want to hear from Kath and Baron.
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Darryl Strawberry » 21 Nov 2017, 22:40

How about you remove the first comma?

Fowler,

... writers of judgement should take the fullest freedom in such matters, allowing no superstition about 'subordinate clauses' to force upon them commas that they feel to be needless
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Snarfyguy » 21 Nov 2017, 23:07

Darryl Strawberry wrote:How about you remove the first comma?

Fowler,

... writers of judgement should take the fullest freedom in such matters, allowing no superstition about 'subordinate clauses' to force upon them commas that they feel to be needless

Thanks. I considered that, but it kind of runs together weirdly without commas.

I don't actually like any of the proposed solutions. Perhaps better just to re-write as

Did the Indiana Court of Appeals apply Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984) and its progeny unreasonably, or reach a decision contrary to that body of law?

But I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings!
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Matt Wilson » 21 Nov 2017, 23:44

But more importantly, is there life on Mars?

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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Hugh » 22 Nov 2017, 00:02

Could you say:

Did the Indiana Court of Appeals unreasonably apply, or reach a contrary decision to Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984) and its progeny?

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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Still Baron » 22 Nov 2017, 00:30

I don’t have a real answer, but I deal with Strickland v. Washington on a daily basis and it made perfect sense to me.

Also, must we say “and its progeny?”

Can we drop the case citation in a footnote?

Finally, why ask the question? Is that based on the rules of whatever federal court you’re in? If you’re asking, the odds on chances are that they probably didn’t. Why not just say they did?

The Indiana Court of Appeals unreasonably applied and reached a decision contrary to Strickland v. Washington.

Or

The Indiana Court of Appeals unreasonably applied Strickland v. Washington and reached a decision contrary to its holding.
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Snarfyguy » 22 Nov 2017, 01:08

^^^ It's not so much a matter of it making sense, but just how best to express the notion. "And its progeny" is the drafter's rhetorical prerogative (I function as a cite-checker and copy editor; shit has to get pretty bad before I'll start start attacking the substance of their legal arguments - unless I'm asked to do so).

Footnotes are reserved for non-legal info such as how our appendix pages are numbered, etc (it's cynically thought that no one reads footnotes). We're in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit.

It's just one of those things where my indecisiveness makes me go back and forth over which one is less worse.
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kath
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby kath » 22 Nov 2017, 01:12

i would leave out the comma. basically, yer lookin at did they do this or that?

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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Snarfyguy » 22 Nov 2017, 01:24

kath wrote:i would leave out the comma. basically, yer lookin at did they do this or that?

Yeah, just there's so much more information in the sentence than that. The whole point of commas is to render written English in manner approaching, but not at the level of, speech.

Fuck! :lol:

Why can't there be, like, a half-comma?
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby kath » 22 Nov 2017, 01:27

Snarfyguy wrote:
kath wrote:i would leave out the comma. basically, yer lookin at did they do this or that?

Yeah, just there's so much more information in the sentence than that. The whole point of commas is to render written English in manner approaching, but not at the level of, speech.

Fuck! :lol:

Why can't there be, like, a half-comma?


the semi-comma fell out of usage in the late 1800's, as everyone thought it was a period.

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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby fange » 22 Nov 2017, 01:30

I'm not sure it will, but i hope this helps...

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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby kath » 22 Nov 2017, 01:33

fange wrote:I'm not sure it will, but i hope this helps...



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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Still Baron » 22 Nov 2017, 01:34

Snarfyguy wrote:^^^ It's not so much a matter of it making sense, but just how best to express the notion. "And its progeny" is the drafter's rhetorical prerogative (I function as a cite-checker and copy editor; shit has to get pretty bad before I'll start start attacking the substance of their legal arguments - unless I'm asked to do so).

Footnotes are reserved for non-legal info such as how our appendix pages are numbered, etc (it's cynically thought that no one reads footnotes). We're in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit.

It's just one of those things where my indecisiveness makes me go back and forth over which one is less worse.


Fucking white shoe lawyers dabbling in The Criminal Law with their progeny talk and full cites in sentences for the most cited Supreme Court case in the last 35 years! And probably in the “issue presented” or some shit. Bring me up there and I’ll give em some CLE on how to get in your feel good pro bono hours and not fuck up some poor sap’s chances on habeas corpus.

(sorry)
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Re: Punctuation Question

Postby Snarfyguy » 22 Nov 2017, 02:16

Still Baron wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:^^^ It's not so much a matter of it making sense, but just how best to express the notion. "And its progeny" is the drafter's rhetorical prerogative (I function as a cite-checker and copy editor; shit has to get pretty bad before I'll start start attacking the substance of their legal arguments - unless I'm asked to do so).

Footnotes are reserved for non-legal info such as how our appendix pages are numbered, etc (it's cynically thought that no one reads footnotes). We're in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit.

It's just one of those things where my indecisiveness makes me go back and forth over which one is less worse.


Fucking white shoe lawyers dabbling in The Criminal Law with their progeny talk and full cites in sentences for the most cited Supreme Court case in the last 35 years! And probably in the “issue presented” or some shit. Bring me up there and I’ll give em some CLE on how to get in your feel good pro bono hours and not fuck up some poor sap’s chances on habeas corpus.

(sorry)

:lol: Guilty on all counts.
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