Britain's actions in Ireland

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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John aka Josh
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby John aka Josh » 04 Nov 2017, 00:03

The Modernist wrote:I don't know why you're all talking about what happened 500 years ago. That misses the point about this being recent history with consequences that are still very raw now.



We're not. The 'British' have been despicable in their actions for some time now, we're merely deciding when the ruling culture in Britain started our aggressive attitude. We agree that actions in the recent past has left recent scars. My opinion is that the Irish have long memories of British oppression, since the Tudor period. If one has been brought up with a long experience of foreign oppression that will feed into the national psyche. When I was living in N. Ireland I met people who were still, understandably, very angry about the potato famine & the actions of the ruling class. No one I conversed with mentioned the Tudors (or Normans), some did mention Cromwell in a not very positive way.
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby never/ever » 04 Nov 2017, 00:38

Is that connection with the famine also because of the economic crisis that had hit Ireland a few years back, with so many people being laid off, sparking a similar kind of feeling where some workers felt they had to leave the country to support their family?
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby never/ever » 04 Nov 2017, 01:00

Oh.
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby never/ever » 04 Nov 2017, 01:00

Glad to have straightened that out.
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby *fun and open field* » 04 Nov 2017, 09:03

22 minutes? You'll be lucky!
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Toby » 04 Nov 2017, 09:40

The problem with Ireland is that Britain's involvement in it, particularly from the 16th century onwards, must be taken in a wider strategic context. France and Spain were far superior in their reach back then and Britain essentially had to control Ireland to prevent other powers from taking it. Of course, that in no way diminishes the reprehensible actions of the English and the British since then.

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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Moleskin » 04 Nov 2017, 10:13

Toby wrote:The problem with Ireland is that Britain's involvement in it, particularly from the 16th century onwards, must be taken in a wider strategic context. France and Spain were far superior in their reach back then and Britain essentially had to control Ireland to prevent other powers from taking it. Of course, that in no way diminishes the reprehensible actions of the English and the British since then.


A whole lot of imperial self-justification in there. Britain didn't 'have to' control Ireland. It needed to have a friendly Ireland. The fact that the last few centuries of repression in Ireland (since William) precluded that is not an excuse.
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Toby » 04 Nov 2017, 10:18

It's not justification. in the 16th century there was no Imperial policy per se. France and Spain were superior powers in every sense with greater military projection who craved English resources. The threat of invasion, especially given the context of the religious wars of the time, was exceptional.

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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby The Modernist » 04 Nov 2017, 10:18

John aka Josh wrote:
The Modernist wrote:I don't know why you're all talking about what happened 500 years ago. That misses the point about this being recent history with consequences that are still very raw now.



We're not. The 'British' have been despicable in their actions for some time now, we're merely deciding when the ruling culture in Britain started our aggressive attitude. We agree that actions in the recent past has left recent scars. My opinion is that the Irish have long memories of British oppression, since the Tudor period. If one has been brought up with a long experience of foreign oppression that will feed into the national psyche. When I was living in N. Ireland I met people who were still, understandably, very angry about the potato famine & the actions of the ruling class. No one I conversed with mentioned the Tudors (or Normans), some did mention Cromwell in a not very positive way.


I think colonialism is intrinsically brutal and exploitative. Any country with any kind of colonial history is going to have blood on their hands. What concerns me now though is the way British governments have been allowed to lie, cover up and collude over events that are still very recent. There seems little political or public appetite to challenge this state of affairs. Especially as we currently, and shockingly, have a unionist party controlling the balance of power in Westminster.

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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Diamond Dog » 04 Nov 2017, 10:36

Hammer, nail and head time time, right there.
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Tactful Cactus » 04 Nov 2017, 12:25

The famine must have been a living horror but its one of the best things to happen to Ireland. By all accounts the country was very insular before the famine, people were territorial and suspicious of outsiders. Forced emigration gave us a hard won global identity thats unlike any other country our size. We still reap the benefit in every aspect (would Bill Clinton fly to Sri-Lanka to intervene in a political log jam?) Its horrible that it happened, it shouldn't happen to any country but it defined us in a really positive way.

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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Rayge » 04 Nov 2017, 13:56

The Modernist wrote:What concerns me now though is the way British governments have been allowed to lie, cover up and collude over events that are still very recent.

By whom? And why should now be any different than the past few centuries? Incidentally, that's why I brought up the Tudors, not because of their policyh towards Ireland, but because they established the state and started both to build the navy with which they would rape the world in the next three centuries and to contract private individuals to carry out acts of war on countries with whom war had not been declared, the buccaneers. I'm sure they are still doing it today, in the name of the 'greater good'.
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby The Modernist » 04 Nov 2017, 14:23

Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:What concerns me now though is the way British governments have been allowed to lie, cover up and collude over events that are still very recent.

By whom? And why should now be any different than the past few centuries? .


Because the alternative - that we can never expect improvement or bring positive change - is nihilistic and defeatist.

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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Rayge » 04 Nov 2017, 14:39

The Modernist wrote:
Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:What concerns me now though is the way British governments have been allowed to lie, cover up and collude over events that are still very recent.

By whom? And why should now be any different than the past few centuries? .


Because the alternative - that we can never expect improvement or bring positive change - is nihilistic and defeatist.

Oh nonsense, G.
For a start, I was asking you why you were surprised that governments who are basically unaccountable (which is why I queried the 'allowed') and set the rules should be breaking them. Of course they will, if it suits their expediency. They can always justify these things by reference to the greater good and the state.

And speaking of 'the' alternative, when there are actually too many too count, is very blinkered. Who are the 'we' that can never expect 'improvement' (whatever that is) or 'positive' change, when change is the only thing we can be sure of and positive and negative are poles of a continuum (unless you're down with Ayn Rand and the rest of the knuckle-dragging dualists, which I doubt). And as a yay-sayer and serial winner, nihilist and defeatist are two descriptions I just won't countenance. :evil:
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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby The Modernist » 04 Nov 2017, 14:47

Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Rayge wrote:By whom? And why should now be any different than the past few centuries? .


Because the alternative - that we can never expect improvement or bring positive change - is nihilistic and defeatist.

Oh nonsense, G.
For a start, I was asking you why you were surprised that governments who are basically unaccountable (which is why I queried the 'allowed') and set the rules should be breaking them. Of course they will, if it suits their expediency. They can always justify these things by reference to the greater good and the state.


They should be accountable. That's the whole point.

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Re: Britain's actions in Ireland

Postby Rayge » 04 Nov 2017, 15:15

The Modernist wrote:
Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Because the alternative - that we can never expect improvement or bring positive change - is nihilistic and defeatist.

Oh nonsense, G.
For a start, I was asking you why you were surprised that governments who are basically unaccountable (which is why I queried the 'allowed') and set the rules should be breaking them. Of course they will, if it suits their expediency. They can always justify these things by reference to the greater good and the state.


They should be accountable. That's the whole point.


They probably are, in theory, at the international Courts of Justice, but the political will just isn't there. The article is trying to hold them accountable, I guess. And they are accountable in your, and indeed my, mind and heart.
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