Harvey Weinstein in trouble

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Charlie O. » 28 Oct 2017, 19:02

Thang-y wrote:There's an actor in the UK called Martin Clunes - no reason to know of him outside the UK

Doc Martin is reasonably well-known in the US. My mom watches it sometimes.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Thang-y » 29 Oct 2017, 13:21


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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 29 Oct 2017, 20:34

Diamond Dog wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41760069


A painful read.

I must stress that I am not a qualified psychologist, far from it. But that she uses the word 'dissociation', that's remarkable, and IMHO spot-on. It is a core experience in trauma. You seem to feel like watching the drama unfold, whilst your not the 'owner' of your body anymore. Mind and body are separated. You seem to observe the scene, the situation, from 'outside', a helicopter perspective as it were. You are disembodied. It is a survival option, the only one left, you have no other choice (I mean: it protects you from falling mentally apart altogether). That makes it so traumatic: you become an impartial 'reporter' of a crime. Thing is: you're not a journalist, you are the victim.

It's why war veterans often have an extremely vivid series of memories, film-like (not a pun, mind) of what happened. These return in the form of nightmares.

Many men in power probably don't have the slightest inkling of all of this. That's why they rose to power in the first place: an absence of empathy. But it does not exculpate them in any way.

IIRC dissociation, depersonalization, and derealization somehow are experiences close to one another, if not overlapping.

If the disgusting stories about Weinstein's behaviour do serve the purpose of making many men aware of these effects of their unwanted and potentially dreadful consequences of their actions, then they do serve a purpose.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Minnie the Minx » 30 Oct 2017, 01:36

Here's an example of - well, lots of things relevant to my longer post, less relevant to Weinstein.

I was out last night watching a band on my own while Baron watched baseball. It was a smallish local venue and it was pretty late, and about 100 of us there in all. I was stood about a metre away from the stage watching the support band. There were three guys behind me and one of them was just in my line of vision. I had seen him already and reckoned they were all in their late fifties. I was stood nodding my head away to the music and one of them leaned in about a foot away from my ear and said "I love your red hair". I totally ignored him and carried on watching the band. He got the message and didn't say anything else.

I stand by what I said in my longer post about not wanting to imagine a future where nobody feels they can make a statement to somebody they want to "get to know." However, at the same time, (and also being quite full of wine) I then spent the rest of the time I was watching the first band thinking the following things: What if he hasn't taken no as an answer and he's going to try and talk to me again? What if he's annoyed I ignored him and he'll be waiting when I leave? What if he spikes my drink while I'm dancing? Should I move away and stand where he can't see me? Should I stand here and make a point that I won't be embarrassed into moving? Is he laughing with his friends about the prissy bitch? Should I have said something to be polite and not make him look an arse? Does he look like someone I could punch?

I was annoyed - mainly - that I then spent more than enough time thinking about what I should do next in this social exchange when I am sure he forgot about it minutes later. That's the whole thing. It sets off a cascade of low level anxiety. More to the point, there is no way that he would have made that comment if my husband had been with me. I no longer felt relaxed in a space where I had gone specifically to relax.

Ironically, my friend, who was playing that night, introduced me to one of his bandmates I had never met as "Anna with the fucking fantastic red hair" and it was entirely appropriate - I knew him, he wasn't a stranger, and let's face it, my hair was looking fantastic. If the other guy had overheard the conversation, I can understand him shrugging and wondering about stuck up broads. But there is a context to both those exchanges - and even though the statement of the stranger wasn't hostile, it was just enough to FUCK ME OFF.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby The Modernist » 30 Oct 2017, 01:48

At least he didn't persist. I wouldn't worry about it.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby The Modernist » 30 Oct 2017, 01:49

Sorry - that sounded too dismissive. I'm not sure what to say actually.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Thang-y » 30 Oct 2017, 07:53

An accusation now against Kevin Spacey

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/30/enter ... index.html

In response, Spacey says it was over 30 years ago and he can't remember but he says if it happens (he doesn't deny the possibility) then he apologizes.

If he'd done it to a man his age/size or above of the same standing in the business, it would have been a pass. An unpleasant one but a pass. The issue here is that Anthony Rapp was 14 and a kid in the business - so both physically and professionally Spacey was more powerful than him. But Spacey does acknowledge the possibility - and in doing so makes a statement about his sexuality (it's a big deal he's been famously private about it). He says if it happens he would have been drunk; not only have we all been drunk but the inference is that it was not a situation he designed or manipulated (unlike the allegations against Weinstein and Savile). In addition, the kid squirmed out of the situation - Spacey made a strong physical pass but didn't force himself.

Anyway, fair play to Spacey, I think. Or do I? Yeah I think so.

Each situation is different. Where is "acceptable" line drawn? When can it be truly called "a mistake"? Much much minor 'allegations' don't help with the discussion.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby The Modernist » 30 Oct 2017, 08:51

Thang-y wrote:Much much minor 'allegations' don't help with the discussion.


I agree. Are people to be outed for making clumsy passes now?

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Goat Boy » 30 Oct 2017, 09:50

I've always thought you were really sound, G.

If you ever fancy going to the cinema sometime or sharing a sauna together then give us a shout, you know?

*hic*
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby The Modernist » 30 Oct 2017, 10:24

Goat Boy wrote:I've always thought you were really sound, G.

If you ever fancy going to the cinema sometime or sharing a sauna together then give us a shout, you know?

*hic*


I feel traumatised.

#metoo.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Minnie the Minx » 30 Oct 2017, 11:35

The Modernist wrote:At least he didn't persist. I wouldn't worry about it.


What shouldn't I worry about?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Robert » 30 Oct 2017, 12:54

A comedian called Samantha bee wrote:Here's an example of - well, lots of things relevant to my longer post, less relevant to Weinstein.

I was out last night watching a band on my own while Baron watched baseball. It was a smallish local venue and it was pretty late, and about 100 of us there in all. I was stood about a metre away from the stage watching the support band. There were three guys behind me and one of them was just in my line of vision. I had seen him already and reckoned they were all in their late fifties. I was stood nodding my head away to the music and one of them leaned in about a foot away from my ear and said "I love your red hair". I totally ignored him and carried on watching the band. He got the message and didn't say anything else.

I stand by what I said in my longer post about not wanting to imagine a future where nobody feels they can make a statement to somebody they want to "get to know." However, at the same time, (and also being quite full of wine) I then spent the rest of the time I was watching the first band thinking the following things: What if he hasn't taken no as an answer and he's going to try and talk to me again? What if he's annoyed I ignored him and he'll be waiting when I leave? What if he spikes my drink while I'm dancing? Should I move away and stand where he can't see me? Should I stand here and make a point that I won't be embarrassed into moving? Is he laughing with his friends about the prissy bitch? Should I have said something to be polite and not make him look an arse? Does he look like someone I could punch?

I was annoyed - mainly - that I then spent more than enough time thinking about what I should do next in this social exchange when I am sure he forgot about it minutes later. That's the whole thing. It sets off a cascade of low level anxiety. More to the point, there is no way that he would have made that comment if my husband had been with me. I no longer felt relaxed in a space where I had gone specifically to relax.

Ironically, my friend, who was playing that night, introduced me to one of his bandmates I had never met as "Anna with the fucking fantastic red hair" and it was entirely appropriate - I knew him, he wasn't a stranger, and let's face it, my hair was looking fantastic. If the other guy had overheard the conversation, I can understand him shrugging and wondering about stuck up broads. But there is a context to both those exchanges - and even though the statement of the stranger wasn't hostile, it was just enough to FUCK ME OFF.


I can understand all those feelings, especially in the current #metoo times. But I am a bloke so it is probably hard to genuinely relate. That said, the guy was in his late fifties so I guess you could have cut him some slack and simply thank him for the compliment and further ignore him and take it from there. Just on the ( I guess off-) chance that it was meant in good faith with no ulterior motives. I wouldn't say the thing that guy did in a waiting room at the doctor's or on a train platform, but at a concert when in good spirits with mostly like minded people, I maybe would, completely unaware of the feelings they could spur as you describe.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Minnie the Minx » 30 Oct 2017, 14:05

Robert wrote:
A comedian called Samantha bee wrote:Here's an example of - well, lots of things relevant to my longer post, less relevant to Weinstein.

I was out last night watching a band on my own while Baron watched baseball. It was a smallish local venue and it was pretty late, and about 100 of us there in all. I was stood about a metre away from the stage watching the support band. There were three guys behind me and one of them was just in my line of vision. I had seen him already and reckoned they were all in their late fifties. I was stood nodding my head away to the music and one of them leaned in about a foot away from my ear and said "I love your red hair". I totally ignored him and carried on watching the band. He got the message and didn't say anything else.

I stand by what I said in my longer post about not wanting to imagine a future where nobody feels they can make a statement to somebody they want to "get to know." However, at the same time, (and also being quite full of wine) I then spent the rest of the time I was watching the first band thinking the following things: What if he hasn't taken no as an answer and he's going to try and talk to me again? What if he's annoyed I ignored him and he'll be waiting when I leave? What if he spikes my drink while I'm dancing? Should I move away and stand where he can't see me? Should I stand here and make a point that I won't be embarrassed into moving? Is he laughing with his friends about the prissy bitch? Should I have said something to be polite and not make him look an arse? Does he look like someone I could punch?

I was annoyed - mainly - that I then spent more than enough time thinking about what I should do next in this social exchange when I am sure he forgot about it minutes later. That's the whole thing. It sets off a cascade of low level anxiety. More to the point, there is no way that he would have made that comment if my husband had been with me. I no longer felt relaxed in a space where I had gone specifically to relax.

Ironically, my friend, who was playing that night, introduced me to one of his bandmates I had never met as "Anna with the fucking fantastic red hair" and it was entirely appropriate - I knew him, he wasn't a stranger, and let's face it, my hair was looking fantastic. If the other guy had overheard the conversation, I can understand him shrugging and wondering about stuck up broads. But there is a context to both those exchanges - and even though the statement of the stranger wasn't hostile, it was just enough to FUCK ME OFF.


I can understand all those feelings, especially in the current #metoo times. But I am a bloke so it is probably hard to genuinely relate. That said, the guy was in his late fifties so I guess you could have cut him some slack and simply thank him for the compliment and further ignore him and take it from there. Just on the ( I guess off-) chance that it was meant in good faith with no ulterior motives. I wouldn't say the thing that guy did in a waiting room at the doctor's or on a train platform, but at a concert when in good spirits with mostly like minded people, I maybe would, completely unaware of the feelings they could spur as you describe.


I am incredibly conscious of not wanting to respond to replies on this thread with any kind of judgement - I've been raw and honest about my experiences, and as much as I may not share the ideas of anyone replying, I believe that complete honesty is always ultimately worth it. To that end, I am glad that you replied Robert.

In the interest of honesty, though - my response to your post reaffirms what you already said - that it is hard to genuinely relate. Let's look at the options of what the man could have said: "hey, great band!" "Hey, how are you?" "Hi, my name is..." Instead, he chose to lean in, half unseen, and let me know what part of my appearance, a woman clearly at a show on my own, he approved of. Him, in a group of men, and me, on my own. He had the option of the former and he chose the latter. No, it wasn't a doctor's waiting room, yes, the atmosphere was vibrant and fun, but there are fine nuances that women (mainly, as it is usually women) are acutely aware of in all of these exchanges. I am now aware that this great spot that I have got in front of the stage where I am standing really happily is now the place where someone standing behind me is gawping at me, rendering me self conscious and uncomfortable when I'm trying to have fun.

The notion that I could have just thanked him is eating away at me like a maggot going at an old potato, and cements my notion that the life experiences of men and women in general are so completely and utterly different that I am starting to believe it is impossible to describe.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Goat Boy » 30 Oct 2017, 14:27

He could be thinking that complimenting you on your hair colour is a nice thing because, hey, who doesn’t like compliments (gender cliché: women especially!) but mentioning your hair colour is maybe also a comment on what he perceives your personality to be as well therefore less objectifying and superficial from his point of view.

I think it’s a gap you can’t really bridge. It’s simply beyond our ken ultimately.

Maybe the best thing to say to a strange women is simply, "Hi, I'm Dougie, what's your opinion on Steely Dan?"
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Jumper K » 30 Oct 2017, 14:41

Goat Boy wrote:He could be thinking that complimenting you on your hair colour is a nice thing because, hey, who doesn’t like compliments (gender cliché: women especially!) but mentioning your hair colour is maybe also a comment on what he perceives your personality to be as well therefore less objectifying and superficial from his point of view.

I think it’s a gap you can’t really bridge. It’s simply beyond our ken ultimately.

Maybe the best thing to say to a strange women is simply, "Hi, I'm Dougie, what's your opinion on Steely Dan?"

Fuckin pervert.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Goat Boy » 30 Oct 2017, 14:47

"This man is obviously a fan of hot lunches...."
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby zoomboogity » 30 Oct 2017, 15:20

A comedian called Samantha bee wrote:Let's look at the options of what the man could have said: "hey, great band!" "Hey, how are you?" "Hi, my name is..." Instead, he chose to lean in, half unseen, and let me know what part of my appearance, a woman clearly at a show on my own, he approved of. Him, in a group of men, and me, on my own. He had the option of the former and he chose the latter. No, it wasn't a doctor's waiting room, yes, the atmosphere was vibrant and fun, but there are fine nuances that women (mainly, as it is usually women) are acutely aware of in all of these exchanges. I am now aware that this great spot that I have got in front of the stage where I am standing really happily is now the place where someone standing behind me is gawping at me, rendering me self conscious and uncomfortable when I'm trying to have fun.


To approach you the way he did was simply inappropriate, and depending on whether the woman (not you, Anna, just hypothetically) was either quick-tempered or trained in martial arts, could have landed him in a heap of trouble. If he thought your hair was nice, fine, let him keep that to himself. But to approach you from behind, unprovoked, is just skeevy. Had it been between bands, the focus wasn't on the stage, the two of you just happened to be at the bar or standing near each other, and you were already having a friendly conversation and feeling at ease, big difference. But here we have a case of men in their 50's who are as socially awkward as any teenager. And if the guy thought you should feel "honored" by his kudos, he's sadly mistaken.

This reminds me of something that happened to me years ago which I'd forgotten about until now. One evening I was walking my dog, and we came to a red light at the intersection. We had our personal "vocabulary" when certain words, sounds or actions meant specific things, and when she sat down to rest at the light, I gave her a double-click with my tongue, meaning, "Time to stand up and start walking again." Right after I did that, a woman, who I did not even know was standing behind me, starting walking quickly past us. It occurred to me that she may have thought I directed that tongue-click at her. What was I supposed to have done - run up to her to explain? Been on the lookout for anyone standing near me who doesn't realize I'm giving a command to my dog? Gone back in time to reconsider my dog vocabulary? Pointed out to the woman that if she's going to take offense, she should at least let me know she's there? For all I know, she didn't even hear me and was just out on a power-walk. No, it was just one of those things that was best left alone and not made worse. It does piss me off that all the Weinsteins of the world (not just the rich and successful ones, I mean anyone who treats others as objects) make it difficult to go out into the world and simply be a part of society, and that goes for both women and men.

By the way, any news on Nickolodeon's Dan Schneider? Rumors of inappropriate behavior have been circulating around him for years, and considering that Nickolodeon is a children's station, it makes it all the more heinous if they're true. Is he on the chopping block yet?
Last edited by zoomboogity on 30 Oct 2017, 15:44, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Goat Boy » 30 Oct 2017, 15:21

Thang-y wrote:An accusation now against Kevin Spacey

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/30/enter ... index.html

In response, Spacey says it was over 30 years ago and he can't remember but he says if it happens (he doesn't deny the possibility) then he apologizes.

If he'd done it to a man his age/size or above of the same standing in the business, it would have been a pass. An unpleasant one but a pass. The issue here is that Anthony Rapp was 14 and a kid in the business - so both physically and professionally Spacey was more powerful than him. But Spacey does acknowledge the possibility - and in doing so makes a statement about his sexuality (it's a big deal he's been famously private about it). He says if it happens he would have been drunk; not only have we all been drunk but the inference is that it was not a situation he designed or manipulated (unlike the allegations against Weinstein and Savile). In addition, the kid squirmed out of the situation - Spacey made a strong physical pass but didn't force himself.

Anyway, fair play to Spacey, I think. Or do I? Yeah I think so.

Each situation is different. Where is "acceptable" line drawn? When can it be truly called "a mistake"? Much much minor 'allegations' don't help with the discussion.


Fair play?

Yeah, I may have come on to a 14 year old whilst drunk at a party. I mean, I may have climbed on top of him. I dunno, perhaps, I wouldn't rule it out anyway so sorry if I did.

Oh by the way I'm gay.

Is he trying to conflate the two things? Is he using the "Oh, I'm gay by the way" so people go "awww nice one, Kevin, we'll forget about you possibly climbing on top of a 14 year old because you wanted to fuck him..."

Why use this moment to come out?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby Thang-y » 30 Oct 2017, 15:37

Stating his sexual orientation was the price (because he's never wanted to before now) of not denying it - or acknowledging the possibility.

And yes, fair play to him now for it, and not trying to dismiss the other party.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein in trouble

Postby sloopjohnc » 30 Oct 2017, 15:39

A comedian called Samantha bee wrote:I am incredibly conscious of not wanting to respond to replies on this thread with any kind of judgement - I've been raw and honest about my experiences, and as much as I may not share the ideas of anyone replying, I believe that complete honesty is always ultimately worth it. To that end, I am glad that you replied Robert.

In the interest of honesty, though - my response to your post reaffirms what you already said - that it is hard to genuinely relate. Let's look at the options of what the man could have said: "hey, great band!" "Hey, how are you?" "Hi, my name is..." Instead, he chose to lean in, half unseen, and let me know what part of my appearance, a woman clearly at a show on my own, he approved of. Him, in a group of men, and me, on my own. He had the option of the former and he chose the latter. No, it wasn't a doctor's waiting room, yes, the atmosphere was vibrant and fun, but there are fine nuances that women (mainly, as it is usually women) are acutely aware of in all of these exchanges. I am now aware that this great spot that I have got in front of the stage where I am standing really happily is now the place where someone standing behind me is gawping at me, rendering me self conscious and uncomfortable when I'm trying to have fun.

The notion that I could have just thanked him is eating away at me like a maggot going at an old potato, and cements my notion that the life experiences of men and women in general are so completely and utterly different that I am starting to believe it is impossible to describe.


I think you were totally right to feel the way you did. If I was in a group of friends and saw a woman I thought was attractive alone at a show, I'd never go up to her because I can pretty well guess she'd feel the way you felt. And I wouldn't use a line like that where I appreciated something about her physical appearance. It's too damn forward for me, considering that I'm with a group of guys and a woman is alone.

You don't know what this guy's like. I think you spun it out a little, but hell, you were afraid of what might happen.

And the same thing can be said in different situations like you said and be fine. It's all about context and familiarity.

And a sense of safety.
Last edited by sloopjohnc on 30 Oct 2017, 16:22, edited 1 time in total.
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