Male Feminist? If not, why not?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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PENK
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby PENK » 03 Oct 2017, 19:09

Walk In My Shadow wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:
Walk In My Shadow wrote:


she's not a feminist then.


Could you man-splain this position for us?



OK, I'll try.

Feminists do not argue for starters. They smash you in the teeth.

Feminists don't wear watches. They tell you how late it is.

Feminists don't eat honey. They eat the bees.

etc., etc.


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Chuck Norris is a feminist?
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Quaco » 03 Oct 2017, 19:49

sloopjohnc wrote:
algroth wrote:Feminism, at least in its original meaning, is an ideology and social movement that seeks to establish equality among sexes in a culture that has been historically patriarchal and favorable towards men. It is not, as alt-righters like to believe and some extreme variants of third-wave feminism like to act like it is, a movement that seeks to empower women at the expense of men, or which seeks to punish and oppress men in retribution for their history towards the other sex. So yeah, I can definitely see how a man can be a feminist and would probably count myself amidst those "male feminists".


I have a 21 year-old daughter who's very involved in these issues and she would very didactically and dialectically argue that a man can't be a true feminist. Believe me.

Humans are naturally omnivorous, but I can choose to eat no meat. It may not change what I am, but it changes who I am, which is what really matters. If it makes someone feel better to note that I'm really just an omnivore suppressing my carnivorous side, that's their business. It may be a similar dynamic with feminism issues.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Oct 2017, 21:11

I absolutely consider myself a feminist and have no doubt in my mind that a man can be one.

The key to my being able to say the above is my beginning to understand how traditional gender roles actually hurt men. Think for a moment about how societal expectations around success put men in the position of feeling like a failure if they cannot provide. That's essentially feminism, which really isn't about the promotion of the feminine, but rather about the promotion of more authentic connections between people.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Thang-y » 03 Oct 2017, 21:28

I don't think any man can generally realise the scale and state of the problems.

But that doesn't mean they can't be as feminist as their little worlds allow.

Bless.

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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Oct 2017, 21:31

Does a person have to understand the scale/state of the problem to value equality and authenticity?
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby sloopjohnc » 03 Oct 2017, 21:55

Quaco wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
algroth wrote:Feminism, at least in its original meaning, is an ideology and social movement that seeks to establish equality among sexes in a culture that has been historically patriarchal and favorable towards men. It is not, as alt-righters like to believe and some extreme variants of third-wave feminism like to act like it is, a movement that seeks to empower women at the expense of men, or which seeks to punish and oppress men in retribution for their history towards the other sex. So yeah, I can definitely see how a man can be a feminist and would probably count myself amidst those "male feminists".


I have a 21 year-old daughter who's very involved in these issues and she would very didactically and dialectically argue that a man can't be a true feminist. Believe me.

Humans are naturally omnivorous, but I can choose to eat no meat. It may not change what I am, but it changes who I am, which is what really matters. If it makes someone feel better to note that I'm really just an omnivore suppressing my carnivorous side, that's their business. It may be a similar dynamic with feminism issues.


Good analogy. I think you'd make honorary feminist with my daughter.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby sloopjohnc » 03 Oct 2017, 21:56

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I absolutely consider myself a feminist and have no doubt in my mind that a man can be one.

The key to my being able to say the above is my beginning to understand how traditional gender roles actually hurt men. Think for a moment about how societal expectations around success put men in the position of feeling like a failure if they cannot provide. That's essentially feminism, which really isn't about the promotion of the feminine, but rather about the promotion of more authentic connections between people.


My daughter would scream "false equivalency."
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Oct 2017, 23:12

It isn't an equivalency at all. It's the flip-side of the same coin. The point is that the patriarchy is bad for everyone, not just women.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby sloopjohnc » 03 Oct 2017, 23:47

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:It isn't an equivalency at all. It's the flip-side of the same coin. The point is that the patriarchy is bad for everyone, not just women.


I'm just telling you how I think my daughter would react.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 04 Oct 2017, 00:12

Well it's pretty standard feminist theory, but ok.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby hippopotamus » 11 Oct 2017, 21:54

I also made the equivalence of non-female feminist, with non-minority racist it confuses me sometimes too.
Mostly because it seems it's hard or very difficult for someone who doesn't deal with discrimination to fully understand it.

I don't really think it's true though... at least in the case of feminism. I just want everyone to acknowledge that equality means equality.

This is probably more relevant to the other recent BCB feminism Awakening thread
but I laughed at this article
"Patients less likely to die post-operation if surgeon is female, new study finds"

"In real terms, the difference was very small - only one extra death per every 230 procedures conducted by male and female surgeons.

In a statement, Professor Clare Marx and Professor Derek Alderson, the respective former and current presidents of the Royal College of Surgeons, said: "This study helps to combat lingering biases by confirming the safety, skill, and expertise of women surgeons relative to their male colleagues.

They also assured patients that there is no need to worry about the sex of their surgeon as it is unlikely to be an "important determinant".

Previous studies have shown that female medical students are better at basic surgical skills and gain higher scores on surgical knowledge tests. This new study is the first time a significant difference has been noticed in pat

Although approximately 58 per cent of current medical students are women, just 11 per cent of practicing surgeons in Britain are female. "


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/patients-less-likely-to-die-postop-if-surgeon-is-female-study-finds-a3655841.html

It's a bit ridiculous we have to do a large scale study to prove female surgeons aren't dangerous and incompetent at their jobs just because they are female. I've read a few studies showing higher success rates with female physicians as well...
I've also imagined what would happen if they proved men had better safety outcomes. It would hardly be used to prove they were allowed to keep their jobs.

I don't know that men acknowledge that women are discriminated against. (I definitely remember BCB posters denying any gender-related wage gap.) So they can hardly be feminists before there's any acknowledgement, let alone understanding of the problem.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Oct 2017, 22:11

I think some of the confusion is around what is being claimed when a man proclaims himself a feminist.

The comparisons with race seem to run along the lines of someone "knowing the struggles" of non-white people. But one can be an ally to people of color without actually understanding (in fact...it's the only way to be an ally, as we could never actually know). The key at some level is being aware that we don't know and being willing to listen.

It's the same with feminism. As a man, what I know is that I don't know. I realize that I act on patriarchal assumptions every day. Accepting the label of feminist isn't my way of claiming to be free from all of that. I'm positive that I am not. It is my way to proclaim myself willing to learn.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby hippopotamus » 11 Oct 2017, 22:15

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I think some of the confusion is around what is being claimed when a man proclaims himself a feminist.

The comparisons with race seem to run along the lines of someone "knowing the struggles" of non-white people. But one can be an ally to people of color without actually understanding (in fact...it's the only way to be an ally, as we could never actually know). The key at some level is being aware that we don't know and being willing to listen.

It's the same with feminism. As a man, what I know is that I don't know. I realize that I act on patriarchal assumptions every day. Accepting the label of feminist isn't my way of claiming to be free from all of that. I'm positive that I am not. It is my way to proclaim myself willing to learn.



Sure, I agree.
But I can sometimes be Utterly befuddled as to how blind men can be to this "struggle" such as it is. So, I often worry (I really do!) that I am equally or potentially more blind to how difficult it can be for someone living a very different life to me, because I was born into a hell of a lot of privilege.
I don't know!
Because I don't know, I hopefully be humble in my ignorance... but I'm afraid that I won't be able to fight as hard as I should because it can never be as real to me.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Oct 2017, 22:29

Well...that's the human condition in a nutshell. Humility is as good as we're capable of. Ultimately we can't truly understand the other. Not fully.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Robert » 11 Oct 2017, 23:01

Quaco wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
algroth wrote:Feminism, at least in its original meaning, is an ideology and social movement that seeks to establish equality among sexes in a culture that has been historically patriarchal and favorable towards men. It is not, as alt-righters like to believe and some extreme variants of third-wave feminism like to act like it is, a movement that seeks to empower women at the expense of men, or which seeks to punish and oppress men in retribution for their history towards the other sex. So yeah, I can definitely see how a man can be a feminist and would probably count myself amidst those "male feminists".


I have a 21 year-old daughter who's very involved in these issues and she would very didactically and dialectically argue that a man can't be a true feminist. Believe me.

Humans are naturally omnivorous, but I can choose to eat no meat. It may not change what I am, but it changes who I am, which is what really matters. If it makes someone feel better to note that I'm really just an omnivore suppressing my carnivorous side, that's their business. It may be a similar dynamic with feminism issues.


Interesting. The who suppresses the what.What does that actually change? Genuine question.

It sounds a bit like "a man can behave like a feminist but
he never will be one. A man, by nature, is his what and not his who".

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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Quaco » 12 Oct 2017, 03:26

The what is always there and may come out at any time, but the who is what we make ourselves, or our higher self. I'd rather be judged on that, rather than my obviously imperfect nature.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Fonz » 13 Oct 2017, 13:00

hippopotamus wrote:I also made the equivalence of non-female feminist, with non-minority racist it confuses me sometimes too.
Mostly because it seems it's hard or very difficult for someone who doesn't deal with discrimination to fully understand it.

I don't really think it's true though... at least in the case of feminism. I just want everyone to acknowledge that equality means equality.

This is probably more relevant to the other recent BCB feminism Awakening thread
but I laughed at this article
"Patients less likely to die post-operation if surgeon is female, new study finds"

"In real terms, the difference was very small - only one extra death per every 230 procedures conducted by male and female surgeons.

In a statement, Professor Clare Marx and Professor Derek Alderson, the respective former and current presidents of the Royal College of Surgeons, said: "This study helps to combat lingering biases by confirming the safety, skill, and expertise of women surgeons relative to their male colleagues.

They also assured patients that there is no need to worry about the sex of their surgeon as it is unlikely to be an "important determinant".

Previous studies have shown that female medical students are better at basic surgical skills and gain higher scores on surgical knowledge tests. This new study is the first time a significant difference has been noticed in pat

Although approximately 58 per cent of current medical students are women, just 11 per cent of practicing surgeons in Britain are female. "


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/patients-less-likely-to-die-postop-if-surgeon-is-female-study-finds-a3655841.html

It's a bit ridiculous we have to do a large scale study to prove female surgeons aren't dangerous and incompetent at their jobs just because they are female. I've read a few studies showing higher success rates with female physicians as well...
I've also imagined what would happen if they proved men had better safety outcomes. It would hardly be used to prove they were allowed to keep their jobs.

I don't know that men acknowledge that women are discriminated against. (I definitely remember BCB posters denying any gender-related wage gap.) So they can hardly be feminists before there's any acknowledgement, let alone understanding of the problem.



Basically, women are better at sewing.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby hippopotamus » 13 Oct 2017, 13:16

Fonz wrote:
Basically, women are better at sewing.



Yes... they say "communication"-- but what they mean is Gossiping.
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Re: Male Feminist? If not, why not?

Postby Fonz » 14 Oct 2017, 13:47

hippopotamus wrote:
Fonz wrote:
Basically, women are better at sewing.



Yes... they say "communication"-- but what they mean is Gossiping.



:D
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