Catalan Referendum

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 03 Oct 2017, 09:57

I don't know about a trend towards a federal Europe, I'd say the trend is the opposite. Look at brexit!

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Toby
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Toby » 03 Oct 2017, 10:09

Well, the EU prefers deeper integration. The creation of a European army for example.

I don't think the column's viewpoint is too far off personally - many commentators are observing that in the West, and in Europe particularly, that we are moving towards a city-state situation, purely because the separation between urban and rural living is growing faster and faster.

London is pretty much a City-State already.

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 10:15

The Modernist wrote:I don't know about a trend towards a federal Europe, I'd say the trend is the opposite. Look at brexit!


This is where I'm afraid it gets conspiratorial. There are forces, interested parties, "non-state actors," those who would benefit from a united Europe. If you think revolutions like the Arab Spring, the Orange and then the Maidan revolutions in Ukraine and now Catalonia, and maybe even the Scottish independence movement (don't hear much about this) are organic with no financiers, no parties who'd benefit, who'd then get a bigger piece of the pie, then I think you are wrong. The "leave" vote could have been a reaction to this conspiracy theory that Europe is taking over. But then, watch how slowly the UK government is moving on Brexit. The UK Column guys predict that Britain will never actually leave the EU despite the vote, that those same "interested parties" will see to it.

Oh, and keep your eye on what's happening in Iraq with "Kurdistan."

http://www.atimes.com/article/unravelli ... pipedream/
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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 03 Oct 2017, 11:24

There were quite a few "interested parties" funding the Brexit campaign.
This worrying article is well worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -democracy

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Goat Boy
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Goat Boy » 03 Oct 2017, 11:26

Hang on a minute, I'm just going to copy and paste a 10,000 word article I found somewhere.

I'd be interested in what you think about it....
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Oct 2017, 11:26

Toby wrote:Well, the EU prefers deeper integration. The creation of a European army for example.


Is that right, Toby? I thought they were looking for a unified defence stategy and co-operation between member states - but that's not the same thing. There are unquestionably people (like Juncker, I believe) who have said they'd like an EU Army, but that's not even been discussed (as I'm aware) on any formal basis.
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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 03 Oct 2017, 11:33

Toby wrote:Well, the EU prefers deeper integration. The creation of a European army for example.

I don't think the column's viewpoint is too far off personally - many commentators are observing that in the West, and in Europe particularly, that we are moving towards a city-state situation, purely because the separation between urban and rural living is growing faster and faster.

London is pretty much a City-State already.


Sure. But I don't think a more integrated EU with its rules and regulations over trade is particularly conducive towards that. A completely deregulated situation where companies are not operating within any parameters is. Global laissez-faire economics is surely the goal.

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Jimbo
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 13:52

The Modernist wrote:There were quite a few "interested parties" funding the Brexit campaign.
This worrying article is well worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -democracy


:o

That's some brave new world shit.
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Robert
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Robert » 04 Oct 2017, 20:27

Goat Boy wrote:Hang on a minute, I'm just going to copy and paste a 10,000 word article I found somewhere.

I'd be interested in what you think about it....


:lol:

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Robert » 04 Oct 2017, 20:40

The Modernist wrote:There were quite a few "interested parties" funding the Brexit campaign.
This worrying article is well worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -democracy


I'll read more later but the first 5 minutes reading is scary stuff!

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Great Defector » 05 Oct 2017, 00:16

Goat Boy wrote:Hang on a minute, I'm just going to copy and paste a 10,000 word article I found somewhere.

I'd be interested in what you think about it....



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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Samoan » 27 Oct 2017, 18:06

What a mess - in a divided Catalonia. What have you gone and done, independence voters ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 27 Oct 2017, 21:38

Samoan wrote:What a mess - in a divided Catalonia. What have you gone and done, independence voters ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116


Good that someone took back the thread up again.

It is a total mess. We may see violence, and incarceration of people who should have known better.

Is this, in the end, some gut-reaction to the mess that is the EU itself?

A demand for real democracy, where the EU offers none, because it doesn't function in any democratic way itself?

(I must add that I found the desire for a Brexit bad, because it was driven by populist and unthinking motives. But at its core, it might have been a hearfelt no-no to corruption, greed, and this: "the bureaucracy will have to be expanded to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy".
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Toby
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Toby » 27 Oct 2017, 21:43

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:(I must add that I found the desire for a Brexit bad, because it was driven by populist and unthinking motives. But at its core, it might have been a hearfelt no-no to corruption, greed, and this: "the bureaucracy will have to be expanded to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy".


There are plenty of people who voted for Brexit because they think that the EU is undemocratic at its core. It was not all racism and immigration. Why David Cameron called a referendum in the first place was to placate sections of the Conservative party that have never been comfortable with being members of the EU. It was not driven by "populism" in itself. Sure, there is no doubt that populism and concerns about immigration played a significant part in the outcome of the result, but the push for the process wasn't.

Anyway, back to the topic.

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 27 Oct 2017, 22:00

Toby wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:(I must add that I found the desire for a Brexit bad, because it was driven by populist and unthinking motives. But at its core, it might have been a hearfelt no-no to corruption, greed, and this: "the bureaucracy will have to be expanded to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy".


There are plenty of people who voted for Brexit because they think that the EU is undemocratic at its core. It was not all racism and immigration.

Anyway, back to the topic.


Thank you, Toby -

because I didn't have the time to look into the inner workings of the EU (aside from personal issues), I came rather late to which people, and what kind of thinking, eventually led to the planning, construction, and realization of what is this thing: EU. I was surprised, and later on appalled, by what I learned.

The only thing that I want to add: it's not good to dismantle a gigantic machinery, apparatus, by dissociating oneself from it in a single, and IMHO dangerous step. Because there exists no single person, nor a decent association of intelligent people, who can understand the complete structure and modus operandi of any complex, dreadfully counterproductive, and in the end: monstrous and anonymous beast.

It'll take patience, and long years of decent, modest, human thinking and feeling.

Back to Catalunya, and forgive me my rant.
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