Catalan Referendum

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Geezee
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 13:53

The Modernist wrote:
Geezee wrote:
But the wishes of the population, through successive polls through the years, have shown at the very least a total split on the question, and the majoirity have been against independence. so how are you defining "they wish" or "wishes of the people" or "a particular area"?



I'm saying precisely that!
I don't know what you're saying. If there isn't a clear majority in favour of it, then of course it shouldn't happen.


No, you weren't saying precisely that at all - or if you are saying that, then presumably you must also be condemning the referendum as much as I do - even if, on balance, and with a lot of reservations over the right-wing nationalist pockets of the independence movement, I probably support an independence claim (but ultimately this is obviously a domestic issue and up for them to decide).
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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 13:55

I think they have a right to a referendum. Really that's all I was saying.
I don't have a strong opinion on the matter itself, that's for them to decide.
I have been there a few times (although back in the 90s, so things may have changed) and knew people living over there. My impression from speaking to them was that there was a desire amongst most for greater autonomy, but not necessarily for independence.

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Fireplug
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Fireplug » 02 Oct 2017, 14:09

The Modernist wrote:Why was the primary school stormed btw? Was there a political meeting there?


Schools are always used as voting stations here. In Barcelona, convoys of vans of the ironically named Guardia Civil armed police were going around the city, raiding the voting stations and seizing the ballot boxes. Anyone inside (which in this case was hundreds of working class people, including OAPs, same as in most areas they hit) faced a police charge then was whacked with batons and corralled with riot shields. Anyone too slow to comply got a serious kicking.

Near me, the crowd was split and those outside the school gates kept away from seeing it all by a wall of police. But neighbours came out and the mass of people on the street started to seriously outnumber the riot police. When the crowd held their hands up and walked forward en masse, slowly but resolutely, the police counter charged a couple of times then chose to retreat. They'd done their job (destroyed the voting station, blacked some eyes) so left and went on to the next place.

Meanwhile, skinheads were driving around the city waving falange flags to provoke the crowds. A car full of these solid Spanish patriots drove into the middle of things here as tensions were at their peak, then got stuck in traffic (the police had blocked the road). I thought they were going to get lynched but the locals, massive credit to them, moved their cars to let them escape with no more than a few hand gestures and choice words aimed at them.

All on my street.

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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 14:14

It is incredible to watch such scenes in Western Europe. Your description is like something out of the 1930s. I just hope your family and friends are okay.
Did you vote yourself Steve? I seem to remember (but I may have got it wrong) that you now have duel nationality.

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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 14:17

One other question, if you don't mind. The police themselves are presumably local Catalans? Is it not a surprise that they are acting so readily, and brutally, on the orders of Madrid?

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Fireplug » 02 Oct 2017, 14:26

I'm in the process of applying for it though that's all up in the air now, like everything else. Only Spanish nationals were eligible to vote so no, I didn't. My wife tried. We went in the morning when it was peaceful and happy with only 2 smiling local policemen present. But as we had the kids with us we decided to return at lunchtime when the queue would be shorter and the crush of the crowd less troublesome. I went to the shops shortly afterwards and discovered the riot vans there and the police holding everyone back as their colleagues stormed the inside of the school. I couldn't see much past the crowd (I'm a short arse; it's the same at gigs :-) ) When the police left we went to check if there was another way to vote but it had all been wrecked and/or confiscated.

And no, the police were all brought in from other parts of Spain. For a week, the news was full of footage of crowds in Spain cheering them off waving Spanish flags, shouting "go and get them, fuck them up" like they were going to war. They were then held, and you couldn't make this up, in a requisitioned cruise ship decorated with Tweety Pie and Sylvester the cat, moored in Barcelona harbour. Warned Bros asked them to cover it up due to the ensuing hilarity on Twitter (before yesterday) but when the police did so they blocked the portholes and no-one could see out. It was like something from Police Academy.

The local police (city and regional) refused to support the Guardia Civil and in some cases stood with the citizens against them. The firemen did too, and were attacked by the Guardia Civil who hit them with batons too.

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 14:33

Wishing you all the best. I remember the military presence (tanks, machine guns, the works) at our nursery in Paris after the Nice attacks (or was it the Bataclan? it all segues horribly together...). So incredibly jarring and incongruous - but even then at least they were obviously there to protect us.
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 14:35

The Modernist wrote:One other question, if you don't mind. The police themselves are presumably local Catalans? Is it not a surprise that they are acting so readily, and brutally, on the orders of Madrid?


My understanding, per my previous post on this, is that Catalan police stood down (which is why the referendum could be held at all) - and that this is perhaps the biggest upcoming flashpoint.
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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 14:35

Cheers for that (to Steve).

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Fireplug
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Fireplug » 02 Oct 2017, 14:37

They did, yes. They didn't have much choice and if Madrid tries to prosecute 17,000 local policemen they'll make the situation here even worse. So bet on them to do it.

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Jimbo
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 06:55



While there is a romantic, slightly downtrodden underdog aspect to the Catalonia story is there a deeper, more conspiratorial mover and shaker making this all move and shake?
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Diamond Dog
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Oct 2017, 08:15

OPDFO.
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Jimbo
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 08:27

Diamond Dog wrote:OPDFO.


Oh please do fuck off???
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The Modernist
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 03 Oct 2017, 08:35

I don't know why you post this stuff Jimbo. I don't understand what response, if any, that you're looking for.

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 08:47

The Modernist wrote:I don't know why you post this stuff Jimbo. I don't understand what response, if any, that you're looking for.


I watched it and it is quite interesting is why. You may find it interesting also. I have been reading everyone's response so far but then after seeing this I see we are only scratching the surface of something that could very well have deep geopolitical ramifications, especially re Europe. I could summarize what they said but then you could watch the video and see for yourself. I have long been an advocate for BCB to go deeper than DD's usual snark and something like this video is on topic and pretty deep.

Another motive is that I like UK Column news and this is a chance to turn others on to the site.
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Fireplug » 03 Oct 2017, 08:47

Jimbo wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:OPDFO.


Oh please do fuck off???


Bingo. And ditto.

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 03 Oct 2017, 09:08

Jimbo wrote:
The Modernist wrote:I don't know why you post this stuff Jimbo. I don't understand what response, if any, that you're looking for.


I watched it and it is quite interesting is why. You may find it interesting also. I have been reading everyone's response so far but then after seeing this I see we are only scratching the surface of something that could very well have deep geopolitical ramifications, especially re Europe. I could summarize what they said but then you could watch the video and see for yourself. I have long been an advocate for BCB to go deeper than DD's usual snark and something like this video is on topic and pretty deep.

Another motive is that I like UK Column news and this is a chance to turn others on to the site.


I watched some of it. It was very muddled and lacked clear evidence. I didn't find the two hosts very compelling to listen to. It seemed to be blaming a combination of The Green Party and George Soros!
Be selective Jimbo, think about your sources and you might get more sympathy on here.

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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 09:36

The Modernist wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
The Modernist wrote:I don't know why you post this stuff Jimbo. I don't understand what response, if any, that you're looking for.


I watched it and it is quite interesting is why. You may find it interesting also. I have been reading everyone's response so far but then after seeing this I see we are only scratching the surface of something that could very well have deep geopolitical ramifications, especially re Europe. I could summarize what they said but then you could watch the video and see for yourself. I have long been an advocate for BCB to go deeper than DD's usual snark and something like this video is on topic and pretty deep.

Another motive is that I like UK Column news and this is a chance to turn others on to the site.


I watched some of it. It was very muddled and lacked clear evidence. I didn't find the two hosts very compelling to listen to. It seemed to be blaming a combination of The Green Party and George Soros!
Be selective Jimbo, think about your sources and you might get more sympathy on here.


They did go into the topic of the trend toward creating city states and a movement to federalize Europe, to dissolve the nations as we know them and let EU be the Unites States of Europe. And they go into who would benefit from this. Now, the guys at UK Column are pretty conservative and seem to favor the way the world is configured, anti-new world order, that sort of thing. But that is something I never really got, especially as most of my conspiracy heroes are always ragging on like the term "new world order" is dirty. Shit is so fucked up all over the world, I kind of like how it sounds. If one day Europe is a country made up of states like Catalonia and Scotland, well, it's all an experiment, I'd be curious to see if shit were better with some kind of new order.
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jeemo » 03 Oct 2017, 09:42

Scotland isn't a state. It's a country that at the moment is part of the United Kingdom.
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Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Jimbo » 03 Oct 2017, 09:48

Jeemo wrote:Scotland isn't a state. It's a country that at the moment is part of the United Kingdom.


Right, but it favors remaining with the EU and if one day, as the UK Column guys predict, Europe becomes like the US then Scotland will become a state within Europe - is what I'm saying.
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