Catalan Referendum

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
User avatar
Geezee
Posts: 11803
Joined: 24 Jul 2003, 10:14
Location: Where joy divides into vision

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 10:04

Tactful Cactus wrote:Franco being anti-Catalan doesn't really explain the criticality of a referendum in September 2017.


This does seem as if you are wilfully trying not to understand the context of all this.
Smilies are ON
Flash is OFF
Url is ON

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17253
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 02 Oct 2017, 10:36

Jeemo wrote:
Tactful Cactus wrote:
Jeemo wrote:what do you mean by "worthwhile"


Its the question I asked in the first post. With so many countries scrambling to stabilise their economy and their place in the world, why is this so critical to Catalans and why is it so intolerant to Spanish police? I think I'm just fed up with these constant news cycles. It doesn't seem worthwhile getting a punch in the face because you want to secede from Spain.


The independence movement for Catalonia goes back years. Franco was very anti Catalan. The vote had already been declared illegal by the law courts. The sensible thing would've been to let it happen, see the result and then legally ignore it. Using state sponsored violence against the general public only strengthens the independence cause.


My idea. Rajoy did the absolutely worst thing he could have done. Now everything is playing out on a fully emotional level only, and that is never a good situation to find any decent solution.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.

User avatar
Nick
Posts: 24220
Joined: 23 Jul 2003, 13:31
Location: Up late at night again

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Nick » 02 Oct 2017, 10:42

Still Baron wrote:The videos Rorschach and fireplug are posting on FB of cops wantonly and gratuitously beating the shit out of what appear to be regular folks and even firefighters are absolutely unbelievable.


The footage has been really shocking. There's no excuse for that level of vicious violence inflicted on citizens engaged in non-violent activities of any kind.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21718
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Toby » 02 Oct 2017, 10:53

In France the Front Nationale came second in the recent elections. The AfD came third in German elections, the first far-right party for 50 years. Spain has secessionist issues that could rip it apart. And they say things are bad in Britain....

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17253
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 02 Oct 2017, 10:57

Just in:

the regional government in Barcelona allegedly wants to declare Catalunya's independency within the next 48 hours, one-sidedly.

Approx. 2.2 million votes of a probable 5 million have been counted, and 90% of these are in favour of leaving Spain.

If this is factually correct, then there is a very nasty situation on the horizon. The first legal action of Rajoy will be to arrest Puigdemont. And that potentially will have dreadful consequences.

Here's hoping for some miracle.

(Posted with utmost caution, of course).
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 29754
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Goat Boy » 02 Oct 2017, 11:04

Toby wrote:In France the Front Nationale came second in the recent elections. The AfD came third in German elections, the first far-right party for 50 years. Spain has secessionist issues that could rip it apart. And they say things are bad in Britain....


It certainly gives you some perspective.
Copehead wrote:You are making a fool of yourself.


Muskrat wrote:I'm undemonstrative during shows; no matter how much I enjoy them. People who get up and move around ("dance," if they will) strike me as show-offs

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 29754
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Goat Boy » 02 Oct 2017, 11:07

I wonder if people will be boycotting Spain as a holiday destination after this?
Copehead wrote:You are making a fool of yourself.


Muskrat wrote:I'm undemonstrative during shows; no matter how much I enjoy them. People who get up and move around ("dance," if they will) strike me as show-offs

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17253
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 02 Oct 2017, 11:13

Goat Boy wrote:I wonder if people will be boycotting Spain as a holiday destination after this?


Good question. Didn't think of this before. Tourism is not trivial for Spain, as we all know.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 8704
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 11:22

Tactful Cactus wrote:Franco being anti-Catalan doesn't really explain the criticality of a referendum in September 2017. Given all the life threatening and vital protests happening worldwide this one just seems a bit pointless and distracting. Wanted to know if there's a genuine cause for all this, I've yet to read one.


Struggling to see why "vital protests" (whatever they might be) in other parts of the world would make Catalans suddenly not want something they've always wanted... :?

User avatar
Geezee
Posts: 11803
Joined: 24 Jul 2003, 10:14
Location: Where joy divides into vision

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 11:23

Goat Boy wrote:I wonder if people will be boycotting Spain as a holiday destination after this?


I don't there'd be a boycott - it's a very complicated issue (what the Catalan gov is doing is entirely illegal, but at the same time they haven't been afforded the same opportunity as eg Scotland...and while the violence is awful it's not unlike many clampdowns on street protests/G20 etc) - but a lot of people are thinking twice about heading over there right now from a pure security perspective.

What happens next is obviously critical, in particular with a very strong focus on the Catalan police, who refused to intervene and stop the poll booths from being set up (which is why so much of the referendum actually took place as the national police wasn't big enough to cover the whole territory). From everything they've done so far, it seems the national gov will just fire the Catalan police leadership over this refusal, in which case the police force either will side with national police or essentially form the backbone of an independence-driven military.
Smilies are ON
Flash is OFF
Url is ON

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21718
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Toby » 02 Oct 2017, 11:37

I think the problem for the Spanish government was that their hands were tied by this. If they let this referendum vote happen, it would normalise the Catalonian's wish for an independent Republic. It is easy to say that the Catalonians deserve their independence because the narrative of these situations always favours the David against the Goliath, but I think this could lead to the break up of Spain if it happens. Whether that would be a disaster is another matter I guess.

The other thing I get from this is that if Brexit didn't happen now, but in a few years when a European superstate is a distinct possibility, what would happen when a state or province decides that it doesn't want to be a part of it? Would we see the same methods of violence? I think so.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21718
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Toby » 02 Oct 2017, 11:38

Goat Boy wrote:I wonder if people will be boycotting Spain as a holiday destination after this?


Er of course not! It's cheap, there's lots of sun etc. People don't stop going to Turkey because of Erdogan do they?

User avatar
Geezee
Posts: 11803
Joined: 24 Jul 2003, 10:14
Location: Where joy divides into vision

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 11:43

Toby wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:I wonder if people will be boycotting Spain as a holiday destination after this?


Er of course not! It's cheap, there's lots of sun etc. People don't stop going to Turkey because of Erdogan do they?


Actually yes they do - it's one of the reasons Monarch has just gone bankrupt. For whatever reason I don't think it's as heavily reported in the UK as it is in Germany/Sweden, for example, so there's perhaps not a big discussion about Erdogan's clampdown, especially against journalists, but I know plenty of people who don't head to Turkey for these reasons. Turkey is extra unstable though of course - after all there have been multiple terrorist attacks as well as a coup in the last couple of years.
Last edited by Geezee on 02 Oct 2017, 11:44, edited 1 time in total.
Smilies are ON
Flash is OFF
Url is ON

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17253
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 02 Oct 2017, 11:44

Toby wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:I wonder if people will be boycotting Spain as a holiday destination after this?


Er of course not! It's cheap, there's lots of sun etc. People don't stop going to Turkey because of Erdogan do they?


:shock:

I heard otherwise.

:idea:

There's a thing called ironing.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 8704
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 11:49

Toby wrote:I think the problem for the Spanish government was that their hands were tied by this. If they let this referendum vote happen, it would normalise the Catalonian's wish for an independent Republic. It is easy to say that the Catalonians deserve their independence because the narrative of these situations always favours the David against the Goliath, but I think this could lead to the break up of Spain if it happens. Whether that would be a disaster is another matter I guess.
.


I think if a particular area has always thought of itself as an independent country or state then they should be allowed to be one. It's relatively straightforward for me.

User avatar
Geezee
Posts: 11803
Joined: 24 Jul 2003, 10:14
Location: Where joy divides into vision

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Geezee » 02 Oct 2017, 11:50

Toby wrote:It is easy to say that the Catalonians deserve their independence because the narrative of these situations always favours the David against the Goliath, but I think this could lead to the break up of Spain if it happens.


I'm not so sure it is easy to say that - I think most people recognise that what the Catalan gov has done is illegal and undemocratic. I believe all polls on the matter have shown a majority supporting staying in Spain vs independence. The referendum itself is of course a joke, even without the violent intervention, as nobody on the "remain" side was aiming to vote in an illegal referendum.

But yes, a break-up of Spain is not out of the realms - one of the biggest worries economically is that the Basque would follow suit - given that their independence drive has in many ways even more historical provenance than in Catalonia and if the Basque follow suit it would effectively kill off the border between Spain and France (since what remains is essentially a mountain).
Smilies are ON
Flash is OFF
Url is ON

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 8704
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby The Modernist » 02 Oct 2017, 11:53

Geezee wrote: I think most people recognise that what the Catalan gov has done is illegal and undemocratic.


Well the legality is neither here nor there, but why is it "undemocratic" ?

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 29754
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Goat Boy » 02 Oct 2017, 11:56

What would be the economic consequences on the rest of Spain if Catalonia left?
Copehead wrote:You are making a fool of yourself.


Muskrat wrote:I'm undemonstrative during shows; no matter how much I enjoy them. People who get up and move around ("dance," if they will) strike me as show-offs

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21718
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Toby » 02 Oct 2017, 11:56

The Modernist wrote:I think if a particular area has always thought of itself as an independent country or state then they should be allowed to be one. It's relatively straightforward for me.


That's a bit of a simplistic attitude. So if Catalonia wants to be an independent state, then perhaps Andalusia and Galicia want to be too, because, why not?

There wouldn't be a Spain left. I suspect that none of those regions are rich enough to be fully economically independent - that's why Spain exists in the first place to facilitate these regions economically.

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 29754
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: Catalan Referendum

Postby Goat Boy » 02 Oct 2017, 12:05

Peoples republic of Yorkshire now!
Copehead wrote:You are making a fool of yourself.


Muskrat wrote:I'm undemonstrative during shows; no matter how much I enjoy them. People who get up and move around ("dance," if they will) strike me as show-offs